Okay, I get it it's a fold pre.. but can we talk about river now lol..?

I'd check and try to show the hand down, but with these player descriptions:

Maybe you're angling for turning this into a bluff? Meh. Could work.

Going over 2k hours now and pondering poker each night as I drift off to sleep, I'm getting pretty close to certain that this is not the best adjustment to high vpip no fold equity loose passive tables.

Search for limons post about a kid crashing his car and calling his dad for help

Keeping in mind this is somewhat a beginners forum (it is, after all, the lowest live NL stakes forum), do you think OP would make this hand profitable here given the way he's played the hand / thought about the hand postflop?

As I say, if you're expert, I dunno, maybe you can make this EV. As someone else mentioned though, rake is raping at this level especially in these mostly small pots that will likely also get max raked; I don't think you're taking that, nor position, into consideration nearly enough.

GimoG

OP you asked about V's range otf. You didn't give us your suits, but with board distribution, there are only 1 or 2 A3s combos. There's 3 pocket 3s, 1 88, 1 AA. 0-2 A8s for a chop. If your read otf was 2p+, you shouldn't be here. (Plus nitty V's aren't usually taking this line with A3s.) You apparently decided AK is also in his range (which is fine), if that's the case, there's 8 combos there. But you have to make that decision before calling the backraise. My point is, your play doesn't reflect what range you gave him.

I never thought he's doing this with AK. I agree with the rest though. I just got mentally stubborn and started hoping he can have A3 in this spot too. I also noticed that there's only 1 combo (or max 2) of A3s depending on the suits in my hand (something I should have been more attentive of) vs lot more combos of hands that beat me. Also, he probably never does this with A3s anyway.

Well, I'll learn to make these laydowns someday.

RESULTS: I block-bet $60 OTR, and V called unconfidently with 88.

He said he was confident I had a flush and would fold to a shove.

Before results were posted, I thought a shove would have been profitable. Just was about to post it right now, but post above me showed results.

200bb deep it's super hard for you to have a bluff here when you jam here after flush completes, and even a set would have a really hard time calling, esp if he can hand-read. Also since you block 88, he has 3 combos 33 and 1 88. It's much easier for him to lay down 33, and your bluff doesnt nees to work that often to be profitable.

And if he folds A8 for a chop, you win too

Yeah but you need balls to make that kind of move right?

^^ Yeah, I actually had a similar spot today where I put the OR on exactly top or second set, he checked a flush river. I bet A74cc with 44 after he checked, turn J he x/r me, 3rd club river. I almost jammed, but pussied out. Then I remebered this hand, and was going to suggest a jam but results already posted lol. If I knew he had bottom set and I had two pair or something, I def would have jammed, but yeah it does take balls. I just gave up tho cuz he might have just said, "fk it I haz top/second set, I cawl."

I dont like the block bet tho. It should just be a x/f or turn your hand into a bluff.

Yeah, realized it too late.

+1 hating the blocking bet

Minatorr what do you think of V's line? When he takes that line on the flop is it more likely he has a flush draw or a nutted hand? Point being it's hard for us to "rep" the flush OTR when V could easily have it.

Truth be told I've flatted middle set in EP/MP multiway for precisely this reason - so we could backraise if anyone gets cute with top pair or draw type hands. Need a good handle on villain to turn our hand into bluff on river.

X/f > bomb >>>>>>>>> block bet

Yeah this flies in the muck and i hope the hand is over fast so i can more cards, which sometimes drives me nuts how long so many hands take to play out. ****ing every hand goes all the way to the god damn river at low stakes.

AP, sit there, stew, get little pissed, try to talk myself into calling and being cool... Then muck anyway begrudgingly. I just don't see anything other than sets or ties here. If we got ripped by AK... good for villain put that in the bank and stack his ass next time.

I'm amazed you think this mubsy V turns a flush draw into a stone-cold bluff by backraising over a check/raise by a player he perceives as tight/winning. The odds of that happening are exactly zero.

Infact, the odds of him backraising A3 are also close to zero, now that I think about it.

Disgusting call by me OTF.

Considering most LLSNL players don't check/raise flush draws unless they're some huge combo draws, why would you backraise in position with middle set and get top pair type hands to fold on these textures? If you think they have top two (like Hero), then sure, but otherwise, it seems bad, especially on such a dry texture.

What the hell are you talking about? I never said he would backraise A3, nor did I say I'd do it in LP.

I've call/raised sets in EP for the precise reason that I've gotten looked up incredibly light, especially when the turn bricks and I shove pot.

Moral of the story however is fold pre.

Imo There is literally a zero % chance he has a FD here. He can't have Axdd, and there are no combo draws.

Also given our super nit image i imagine a shove here gets through here quite often. The backraiser basically never has a flush

Our goal is to win money, not pots. Let's say in this case Hero flopped TP and there was one over card and the 3. It is a limped pot. Is anyone going to bet out who doesn't at least have TP? Not likely. If Hero bets out from the SB, there just aren't going to be callers with worse than TP.

So if Hero gets called, what can the villain have that Hero beats? Hero loses to anything better than TP and AK, AQ, AJ, AT, A9 and A3. Hero can beat A2-A7. At best, Hero is in a 50/50 situation. And of those hands, the ones that beat him are going to be way more sticky than the ones he beats.

Even so, I'd guess that you'll win more pots than you'll lose with A8 when flopping TP. However, the pots you win will be small and the pots you lose will be big because you'll keep calling or betting past the flop. Overall, you'll lose money.

I know I read a lot of people saying they'll just outplay their opponents. But skill is just one factor in winning poker. You gave up initiative when you called pf. The remaining elements are position (which you have the worst) and hand strength (top 20%, but not likely to be the best hand in a 5 way pot). If you remain unconvinced, find Phil Helmuth's story about playing Amarillo Slim for $100k and agreeing to be oop for the entire match.

flop line from this V is always nutted, no way it's a FD, which does cap him when the flush completes.

However, I don't trust LLSNL vil's to fold sets even on flush boards so if I ever got to the river I just x/f - agree the block bet is pretty pointless.

I can't wait for you to start playing live poker bud.

Bolded is totally irrelevant, non bolded is fantasy.

Given reads, his hand is face up on the table as a very strong hand that hates the flush card (but he's very unlikely to fold cuz people hate folding strong hands).

GimoG

+1

This concept is even more important in heavily rake small pot games, imo (which most LLSNL games are).

GIwinfewerpotsthatanyoneelseonthetable,*byfar*,and yetI'mprobablytheonlyoneonthetablewinningG

You said you flat then backraise sets in EP because ppl get cute with TP. But if someone c/r'd TPTK in this spot, they'd fold to your backraise.

He has a set and doesn't want you to get there on your flush/straight draw.

Won't be for a while, haha. I remember reading posts where you guys don't play hands for 1-2 hrs, raise huge and still get 4-6 callers lol

I agree with this line of action, this is the problem with hands like A8o oop. are we still folding if against a lag? I would be tanking for ever

Sent from my SM-G955F using Tapatalk