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Old 07-31-2012, 11:02 AM   #16
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Re: 1/2: villain donks twice

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Originally Posted by Omaha8A2 View Post
It did not seem like an act, but what do I know? I had no real read on this player. Hero?
Just saw this. without a solid read this is a fold.
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Old 07-31-2012, 11:14 AM   #17
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Re: 1/2: villain donks twice

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Originally Posted by Omaha8A2 View Post
Understand your points. It was a raise for value, but it sounds like I was over thinking the sizing to get about a pot size shove on the turn. In my mind I was raising $75, but then that means my turn shove is $88? Didn't seem right, and that's how I arrived at $50 otf and $113 on the turn. Over thinking it? Got a lot of comments on the flop raise but not in relation to how much we have behind. What if villain takes more standard line and checks the turn? Doesn't $113/$50 make more sense than $88/$75?
It depends on the range you are putting him on. If it is mostly FDs, the min-raise does not really deter him. You are not forcing your opponent to make a mistake with that sizing.

Your sizing for the turn makes sense, however I question committing 87 bbs w/TPGK hand vs. an unknown. I think a better line would be to check back the turn if the V indeed checked, perhaps extracting thin value OTR.
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:29 PM   #18
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Re: 1/2: villain donks twice

Idk, seems like there are lots of hands that we beat on the turn that we get full value from if we shove. Remember he limp called pre and then donked/called the flop raise. I felt pretty strongly that I was ahead on the flop. The turn action was confusing. Like Greg says, I wonder if this should be a fold without reads, but I am still getting value from Kx or a single heart flush draw when I call. I don't think it is a situation where we are calling behind. I still think there are quite a few hands that we beat in his range.

I just had this thought: does bet sizing on the turn not really matter? So we can commit ourselves on the flop with a $75 raise and get better definition on the villain's hand? What if he still just calls the $75 raise and then donks? We call since we are committed, right? Is that what some of you are trying to say?
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Old 07-31-2012, 01:55 PM   #19
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Re: 1/2: villain donks twice

When you raise to $50, you keep V's range much wider (flush draws and weak kings) but get very few folds, while when you raise to $75 you get more folds but narrow V's range to a larger percentage that beats you. I think that either way, when you raise, you are committing your stack on the turn, albeit for two somewhat differing reasons.

Maybe this is a case for just flatting the flop bet since in neither of the above cases, are we fist-pumping the turn (regardless of the actual card).
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Old 07-31-2012, 08:08 PM   #20
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Re: 1/2: villain donks twice

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Originally Posted by samo View Post
Grunching ...

As played, crying call.

PF - call. Your opponent is unknown and you have < 100 bbs. Table is passive, your implied odds are better via a call.

OTF - call. I don't follow the reasoning behind your min-raise. Was it a probe? If so, try to avoid. Was it to protect against a FD? A FD will call $25 quickly. Was it for value? Frankly, I don't think your hand is strong enough to value OTF.
This is so poor! Really, limping along with KQo in MP? Its not like were UTG, or at a tiiiight table where only better hands flatcall or 3 bet. KXss, KT, KJ calls us on a reg basis in these games.

this hand dominates so much crap that calls us, let alone we can cbet and get AQ and AK to fold so often when we are PFRaiser. Odds are they whiff when they have our blockers dominated.
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:09 PM   #21
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Re: 1/2: villain donks twice

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Originally Posted by Pay4Myschool View Post
This is so poor! Really, limping along with KQo in MP? Its not like were UTG, or at a tiiiight table where only better hands flatcall or 3 bet. KXss, KT, KJ calls us on a reg basis in these games.

this hand dominates so much crap that calls us, let alone we can cbet and get AQ and AK to fold so often when we are PFRaiser. Odds are they whiff when they have our blockers dominated.
Thanks for the feedback, point taken.

With all due respect however, tight players fold to c-bets, loose players call (even with a miss). I doubt you are going to get AK to fold, more likely than not you will be 3-bet pre. Imo, more artillery may be needed given table dynamics.
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Old 07-31-2012, 10:24 PM   #22
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Re: 1/2: villain donks twice

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Thanks for the feedback, point taken.

With all due respect however, tight players fold to c-bets, loose players call (even with a miss). I doubt you are going to get AK to fold, more likely than not you will be 3-bet pre. Imo, more artillery may be needed given table dynamics.
This is when we use our hand reading abilities to know when and when not to double barrel. I do know this, when I have KQ and get called on my cbet and hit the K, AK has so rarely coolered me ott with TPTK. Maybe I am running good, but this doesn't happen often. Also, AK only 3 bets once in a while by rec players in my ecperience. They like to "make a hand" poker. I see so many comments at the table stating, "I hate AK, its not even a pair"

This is results oriented of course, but Villain appeared to have KJ according to OP (know OP personally). This illustrates its a value raise - villains with decent, rio hands love calling with these type of hands.
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