7 handed

HERO (500) UTG: 21yo TAG image

V (Covers) BB: Pretty bad agressive player, likes to open raise and 3 bet wide. I had not seen him donk bet before.

OTTH

Preflop: I make it 12 with AT UTG+1 calls, sb calls, bb calls
pot:48

Flop: AT6 sb checks, bb bets 20, I call, Everyone else folds
pot:88

Turn: J bb bets 30, I call
pot:148

River: 8 bb bets 30 I call

Should I raise for value somewhere in this hand?

Flop seems like a prime spot to raise for several reasons, one of them is that i am not letting a lol 20$ donkbet continue to the turn when their is almost 50$ in the pot and we holding top two pair. Raise and try to build a pot in position against a bad player imo.

If he is bad aggressive like you describe, who knows he might spazz out either on the flop or on a later street to you if you "try to push him around" with a flopraise. Its about giving him the chance to do so when we are at the top of our range or pretty close to it.

The street I'm least likely to raise is the turn. I for sure raise river to 120, and would prob raise flop too.

Make it $65ish on the flop. Try getting stacks in. Only thing you're scared of is 66 maybe kj? Plus it sucks to have other people call behind with gutters and all kinds of garbage you could be pricing them in.

Heads up, I could see an argument for flatting flop if V is likely to keep barreling but would often fold to a raise. (Still raising for value in a vacuum.) Multiway though, we can't let one or both of the other Vs continue for $20, especially if they're deep. We'll hate life when someone shows aggression on a 6789JQK turn.

That didn't happen this time, and we're heads up on the turn. A raise here would almost certainly have to be a raise/fold, since there's not much he'll b/3b a TAG UTG pf raiser with that loses to AT. He's also likely to fold his weaker Ax to a raise. Flatting seems ok on the turn as played.

I might consider flatting a larger river bet rather than committing stacks with a raise, but this is such a lol-tiny blocker bet that we can certainly raise/fold something modest for value. V has plenty of Ax and maybe some weaker 2 pair (though I'd guess he usually bets larger with those).

I don't care for a flop raise here, it rainbow semi-coordinated but a pretty great and safe flop for my hand. Turn is where I'm popping it to about $100 for value.

Meh. At 1/2 I'm happily raising flop. If he had bet $30 or more then calling becomes better, but even then I'd probably just raise small. Given $500 effective, and how reluctant people are to fold Ax on Axx at 1/2, I'm looking to get stacks in by the river on most runouts. Not to mention we cooler T6s and A6.

As played call turn.

As played raise/fold river. Just calling isn't terrible if he had bet a bigger sizing.

I'd definitely raise flop. Bet is just too small and the others are getting a great price to hit a gutterball. You'll likely lose a big pot if that happens.

I don't think they would be getting a great price, pot would be $88 after a bet and a call. $20 to win $88. You are getting roughly 4 1/2 to 1 odds here for a gutter, I get there are some implied odds but I don't believe we are getting anything close the right odds to hit a gutter (12 to 1).

Now if he donked $10/$12 then we are giving (9 to 1) with some implied odds then I could advocate a raise on the flop to kill that.

I think we get more value calling the flop donk bet of $20, letting 1 or possibly 2 tag along with their crappy odds and then getting another donk turn bet. Then we could value raise. Just my opinion though.

Flop raise has nothing to do with preventing villain from getting a good price with his gutshow draws. It's strictly for value. Don't make this more complicated than it needs to be.

I was replying to the post above me who talked about villians behind getting a good price. That was my response to his post.

If we are talking about value, I think we get greater value with a turn raise versus a flop raise for the reasons I already stated.

Lastly I don't think its very hard at all to think about odds at the table when playing a hand. It literally takes seconds to run that process thru.

Are you talking about this specific turn, or just most turns in general? I don't see a lot of value in raising this turn as played.

I'm specifically talking about this hand and this turn and how I feel you would get more value raising the turn versus raising the flop.

[QUOTE=macktyson;52279439]I don't think they would be getting a great price, pot would be $88 after a bet and a call. $20 to win $88. You are getting roughly 4 1/2 to 1 odds here for a gutter, I get there are some implied odds but I don't believe we are getting anything close the right odds to hit a gutter (12 to 1).

I get what you are saying but if there are 2 calls then the last guy would be $20 to win $108. With hero's hand he will have enourmous implied odds if he hit as it would be tough for him to get away from it.

If I'm the last guy to put my money in on the flop and I'm sitting there with KQ I'll happily call knowing I'll easily get 12 to 1 if I hit.

Not raising the flop is almost criminal here, I think.

We're close to the top of our value range -- only better hands we could have would be AA, TT and MAYBE 66. We're OOP and won't like any card that completes a straight draw, which is almost half the deck. AK/AQ would be well within our range, and we'd raise with those too.

Since we're UTG I don't think we can credibly rep many bluffs other than suited broadway (are we really opening 98s, 87s?).

I want to make any Ax (esp AK/AQ/AJ) pay. If we're coolering A6s or T6s, even better.

4-ways to the flop I'm making a ~pot sized raise to 80-90, planning on getting all-in over 2 more streets if we're heads up (150-160 on the turn, the remaining 250 on the river). If we go 3-4 ways to the turn, I'm ready to overbet jam on any safe card.

Once we flat the flop and are faced with a "same bet" situation OTT, I think it is a pretty good time and hand to find out how this V reacts to a raise when he is running a same bet line. This knowledge could make you a lot of money in this session.

Against and unknown, I will usually assume that donk flop and "same bet" turn means TPWK until V shows me otherwise. Default play is to raise them mercilessly on the turn.

A flop raise gets our V off hands that we dominate like KJ, KQ, Q10, J10, 109, 98, 87, 76, 65 and any Ace. Granted we take some risk in letting someone hit a gutter or another 6 but I think we can let V hang himself there for another bet on the Turn as well as pick up a bet or possibly 2 behind on the flop. We are pretty strong here.

So I disagree about it being criminal to not raise the flop here. I think it's a lower variance play for sure, you will definitely blow out any gutter chasers and take down the pot unless someone shows up with a hand.

That's just my opinion though.

Exactly, that's why I started my post with "Once we flat the flop", meaning I would raise this turn 100% with ATC. The fact that we actually have a hand is a bonus, imo.