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1/2 Missed Value With Top Set 1/2 Missed Value With Top Set

10-20-2015 , 10:54 AM
Hero has been playing TAG, hasn't shown any bluffs, and has been to showdown with strong hands.
Villain is a passive nit.

Hero (UTG, $400): Raises to $12 with QQ
Villain (CO, $300): Raises to $25
Hero: Calls

Flop ($50): QT5

Hero ($375): Checks
Villain ($275): Bets $35
Hero: Raises to $75
Villain: Tanks, shows AA and folds.

Clearly I missed a great opportunity to get villains stack. What should I have done different?
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 11:19 AM
Other than smooth calling the flop... I don't think much else.
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10-20-2015 , 12:07 PM
i'm fine with pre, given that he's a nit

on the flop, i have to believe that any K, J, or diamond could kill our action, so i don't mind the raise. we really didn't raise very much, either

but - you flatted the 3B because you reckoned you were behind, right? what is QQ behind of? AK, KK+?

after this flop, hows AK, KK+ looking vs. us? AK has 4 outs, the rare AKdd combos have 9 outs. KK and AA have 2 outs and possibly diamond re-draws. you could just flat here to try to get another bet out of a really tight Villain, given that you are just heads up. we have the nuts and he doesn't at this stage, and he usually doesn't have many outs

personally i would just make a small raise like you did - majority of the time V will just call and then put more money in on safe turn

my next thought would be to start pounding on this guy if he's folding AA in this spot to a small raise. start making small raises with TPTK, combo draws, flush draws, all kinds of stuff will be profitable if he's folding this hand in this spot
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10-20-2015 , 12:14 PM
Lead flop
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 12:49 PM
b/b/b
35@50/80@120/160 (AI) @280

Because the pot was 3b pre it is harder to rep a combo draw with a flop x/r, and I think your range looks more like your actual holdings to V. With the b/b/b line I think your range could include more KK, JJ, and AQ as judged by V.

I would also begin really applying a ton of pressure to this V the rest of the session...
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 01:08 PM
Ugh, I hate c/r this flop. If he has an overpair he's not folding, so just pot every street. If you had just bet $50 on the flop he probably raises and then he can't fold because he's committed. If he just calls you bet $110 on the next street, then the rest on the river. This keeps draws and KQ/AQ hands in your range.

Sick fold by V, he must have you pegged for a super nit that only opens big pairs and only c/r with nutty hands.
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10-20-2015 , 01:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROKEinCOLLEGElol
What should I have done different?
lead flop, or call and donk turn.

You should c/r this guy in these spots with a wide range until he catches on. He made a great laydown, but showing it was lol bad. punish him for it.
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10-20-2015 , 01:17 PM
I think the line is fine. Bet/Bet/Bet line will also work, but this board is wet enough that V shouldn't be folding AA so easily here.
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 03:39 PM
If AA is folding this easily you need to bluff this V much more often.

However, I do like leading much better here. We can get stacks in very easily with a b/b/b line, so I don't see the need to c/r.
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 07:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by SwolyswoND
If AA is folding this easily you need to bluff this V much more often.

However, I do like leading much better here. We can get stacks in very easily with a b/b/b line, so I don't see the need to c/r.
+1.

Also flop is super draw heavy. Which works well w both points above.
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10-20-2015 , 07:40 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kookiemonster
lead flop, or call and donk turn.

You should c/r this guy in these spots with a wide range until he catches on. He made a great laydown, but showing it was lol bad. punish him for it.
the c/c then donk line is perfect against really nitty 1/2 players. If you bet bet bet he's folding the river, even if bricks roll off. This is the only line where you have a chance of 3 streets of value.

I don't think the flop c/r should be used here. You are shutting down the passive nit on further streets. This is the precise line s/he would take with your hand, as its the most conservative.

Just do what kookie said and c/r him relentlessly and always give him the nod and good fold table tap afterwards....muhhahahaa
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10-20-2015 , 07:43 PM
Everyone's being results oriented imo, if OP hadn't put any flop action in a ton of people would be saying c/r flop and shove ott.

Nothing wrong, people have become nits wanting to show how good they are at folding. Problem is they fold too much now, you need to increase your non-SD winnings and just be okay with winning less often at SD.
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 07:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
Everyone's being results oriented imo, if OP hadn't put any flop action in a ton of people would be saying c/r flop and shove ott.

Nothing wrong, people have become nits wanting to show how good they are at folding. Problem is they fold too much now, you need to increase your non-SD winnings and just be okay with winning less often at SD.
So you're saying c/r any two?

What line are you advocating with the nuts here?

1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 07:56 PM
Even if I knew this guy was a passive nit, I wouldn't expect him to fold AA unless I'd seen it before.

Not having seen him fold overpairs, I'd c/r otf and shove the turn.

If I had seen him fold overpairs before I'd probably c/c-lead-lead.
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10-20-2015 , 07:58 PM
I'm just saying if you haven't seen this you will soon. I used to have 22 on an AA2 flop and shove $300 into $20 and Ax would beat me into the pot, that type of thing doesn't happen anymore.
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10-20-2015 , 08:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
I'm just saying if you haven't seen this you will soon. I used to have 22 on an AA2 flop and shove $300 into $20 and Ax would beat me into the pot, that type of thing doesn't happen anymore.
So why shut him down with a c/r????
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-20-2015 , 08:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
Even if I knew this guy was a passive nit, I wouldn't expect him to fold AA unless I'd seen it before.

Not having seen him fold overpairs, I'd c/r otf and shove the turn.

If I had seen him fold overpairs before I'd probably c/c-lead-lead.
.
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10-20-2015 , 09:04 PM
Grunch, you need to work on your image

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10-20-2015 , 09:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by playertee
Grunch, you need to work on your image

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lol
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-21-2015 , 12:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROKEinCOLLEGElol
Hero has been playing TAG, hasn't shown any bluffs, and has been to showdown with strong hands.
Villain is a passive nit.

Hero (UTG, $400): Raises to $12 with QQ
Villain (CO, $300): Raises to $25
Hero: Calls

Flop ($50): QT5

Hero ($375): Checks
Villain ($275): Bets $35
Hero: Raises to $75
Villain: Tanks, shows AA and folds.

Clearly I missed a great opportunity to get villains stack. What should I have done different?
grunch.
raise to $100 on flop. two many bad turns. he rarely if ever has AK pre so this is always aa kk maybe jj.

as played .....nothing you can do. if hes folding that often....u can bluff raise aton. but dont expect to get paid big
1/2 Missed Value With Top Set Quote
10-21-2015 , 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROKEinCOLLEGElol
Hero has been playing TAG, hasn't shown any bluffs, and has been to showdown with strong hands.
Villain is a passive nit.

Hero (UTG, $400): Raises to $12 with QQ
Villain (CO, $300): Raises to $25
Hero: Calls

Flop ($50): QT5

Hero ($375): Checks
Villain ($275): Bets $35
Hero: Raises to $75
Villain: Tanks, shows AA and folds.

Clearly I missed a great opportunity to get villains stack. What should I have done different?
after seeing results.....knowing what u know now....i would bet $50 on flop and bet big on turn. CRing looks too strong
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10-21-2015 , 01:22 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
Even if I knew this guy was a passive nit, I wouldn't expect him to fold AA unless I'd seen it before.
.
This. Normally you can't pry a nit off his hand OTF with a crowbar.
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10-21-2015 , 01:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BROKEinCOLLEGElol
lol
Not a joke, if the guy bet folds AA to a small raise from you, your image is nuttier than his

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10-22-2015 , 05:34 AM
^ You're assuming V has a clue as to how Hero plays and that V's mindset is to adjust based on what he sees at the table. Those characteristics are lacking in ~99% of the LLSNL player pool.
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10-22-2015 , 06:17 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eldiesel
^ You're assuming V has a clue as to how Hero plays and that V's mindset is to adjust based on what he sees at the table. Those characteristics are lacking in ~99% of the LLSNL player pool.
+1

Also I find it more profitable to play the first hour or so as TAG/nit and to later slowly widen our range and play a more LAG style. All of this is assuming villains are paying attention and that it's even profitable to play LAG at our table.

In my limited experience your initial impression on a table tends to stay with you through the night. If at the beginning of your session your villains label you as a TAG/nit, then you will be a TAG/nit the whole night. As you play more hands, villains will assume you're getting good cards, not widening your range. Once again it's our job to realize whether or not our villains are even noticing our playing style and adjust accordingly.
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