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Old 06-11-2012, 09:54 AM   #1
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1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

7 Handed

Villain 1 is loose passive and unsure of himself, pretty sure it's his 1st time playing in a casino, Villain 2 is loose passive, Villain 3 is loose aggressive, raising 33% of hands preflop, and following through with multiple continuation bets, I don't think anyone's paying attention to Hero's image, it was an extremely loose, relaxed, 4/5 to a flop table, but I'd been playing fairly loose and more agressive (post-flop) than everyone except Villain 3.

UTG Folds
Villain 2 UTG+1 (~320) Calls 2
MP Folds
Hero CO (~500) Calls 2 with J:T
Villain 3 BTN (~400) Raises to 10
SB Folds
Villain 1 BB (~170) Calls 8
Villain 2 Calls 8
Hero Calls 8

Flop (40) 2JT

Villain 1 Bets 25
Villain 2 Calls 25
Hero?
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:02 AM   #2
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Raise to $120.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:07 AM   #3
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Raise to 100
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:19 AM   #4
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexdotcom View Post
Raise to $120.
I definitely agree with raise, but as I am still learning the ins and outs of cash, could you explain why you make it almost 5x the bet? My instinct was to make it about $85, and for all I know that's a leak. Is the big raise to fold out draws? To guarantee that if we get raised we are beat? Do we make it 120 here because of stack sizes specific to this hand, and if everyone is 500 deep do we make this raise a different size? Sorry I'm just trying to get a better grasp of bet and raise sizing in cash as a player attempting to jump from tourneys to cash, thanks.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:27 AM   #5
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Raise to 100-125 with intention of calling a shove from V1 (more likely) and/or V2 (less likely). There are a lot more draws in their range than there are combos of JJ/TT (almost none), 22/JT. If one of them has 22, so be it. Right now, there is a very high likelihood that you are ahead inthe hand, and can DEFINITELY get some percentage of draws/made hands that could improve (QJ etc) to fold.

V3 shoving over your raise would be rare as you say he's pretty loose pf (and so, therefore, is missing this flop or any flop a lot more than he hits it and should just give up with the vast majority of his range given the action in front), but if he did this I'm not sure I could find a fold. He'd obv be repping a set and a set only, which - since we have two pair - is pretty unlikely, but I'm not sure who does this with, say, AA/KK or AKhh. As another thread states "I'll worry about that when it happens."

So definitely raise with the intent of getting it in against your two most likely opponents.
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:29 AM   #6
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by sexdotcom View Post
Raise to $120.
+1
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Old 06-11-2012, 10:39 AM   #7
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redsoxnets5 View Post
I definitely agree with raise, but as I am still learning the ins and outs of cash, could you explain why you make it almost 5x the bet? My instinct was to make it about $85, and for all I know that's a leak. Is the big raise to fold out draws? To guarantee that if we get raised we are beat? Do we make it 120 here because of stack sizes specific to this hand, and if everyone is 500 deep do we make this raise a different size? Sorry I'm just trying to get a better grasp of bet and raise sizing in cash as a player attempting to jump from tourneys to cash, thanks.
$120 bet is basically a pot-sized raise.

$40 + $25 + 25 = $90 in the pot when it gets to us.
We call $25, then the pot is $115, then we add our raise size wrt to the currect pot size, $95 in my case, therefore the total raise size is $120.


If you raised to $85, then the maths is:
$40 + $25 + $25 = $90
Call $25, then the pot is $115. Add the additional $60 for your raise size. So if you raise to $85, you are effectively betting $60 into a $115 pot.


And I would never bet here to try to drive out draws, I want draws to call the flop and commit them on the turn. If I wanted to drive out the draws, I would just jam it now.
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Old 06-11-2012, 11:12 AM   #8
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Grunching ...

Raise to $100. Your image is LAG, lever to max when you hit top 2 OTF.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:22 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Also, if you have an extremely aggressive villain to your left you should be decreasing your limping frequency since you will often be finding yourself in raised pots.
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Old 06-11-2012, 12:31 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

First, seat change. Although there are arguments for having the most aggressive guy at the table on our direct left, I just think there are better arguments for not being on this guy's direct right. We're gonna have a tough night playing in this seat.

I'd raise preflop. There's only one limper and we're in LP, so let's see if we can get this HU in position with initiative. It also takes this option away for the aggy Button who'll most likely fold. Limping is just asking the Button to attempt to iso the both of us, and I really don't think we want to play this guy OOP. We're deep, so I guess I also call the raise, but I really hate being OOP right now. Did I mention the seat change?

This is an extremely drawy board and we most likely have the best hand. I'm raising large to offer poor odds to all the draws. I'd normally make it $140 here (offering poor 2:1 odds), but I'd basically just bet enough to put V1 all in. I'm not 100% sure what I'm doing if V2 or V3 shoves overtop; cold deck, live with the cooler? Or could we somehow fold?

GcluelessNLnoobG
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Old 06-12-2012, 08:18 AM   #11
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Thanks for all the feedback, I don't play cash very often and I'm sure I have tons of leaks, gobbledygeek makes a great point about a seat change and raising pre. I was mainly curious if anyone would flat the flop giving the LAG BTN a chance to pop it, I raised to 100 and everyone folded, but that thinking is probably just results oriented.
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Old 06-12-2012, 09:32 AM   #12
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Re: 1/2 Live - Flop Top 2 in 4 way pot

Not with this board, ever. The risk that V3 calls or even folds behind is too high and your hand isn't strong enough to risk it. Even a semi-competent lag will realize this is a terrible situation to try and pop it if he doesn't have a good draw or a monster hand himself, and your hand really limits the chances that V3 has any hand at all. This board hits a lot of hands and allows for even more draws, any random two high cards either has a pair or a draw here. When it gets to V3 he would be facing a bet and 2 calls and a big pot, he would have to bet at least $100 in a situation where there is a good chance that at least one player is calling.
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