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1/2 line check 1/2 line check

05-23-2016 , 02:47 PM
The game
The game is NLHE. $1/$2 blinds. $400 max buy-in. An UTG or BTN straddle to $5 is permitted, with BTN getting preference.

The players
The hand in question plays 8-handed:
  • UTG+1 (seat 7) is irrelevant here.
  • UTG+2 (s8) is Hero, sitting on 350bb. Hero looks mid-30s but is actually mid-20s. Been at the table for ~4 hours. Hero's image will be explained for each player, because it does vary a bit.
  • UTG+3 (s9) is some middle-aged talkative nit with a card protector and 25bb. We don't care what he thinks of us.
  • HJ (s1) is a 30-something kappa reg with ~85bb. He's slightly down from his initial buy-in. He's been at our table since the start of the night, and we played with him once or twice before (albeit a month or two ago). It is not clear if he remembers Hero from previous sessions. If he does, he's probably confused. Hero normally doesn't play LAG. Tonight, HJ is calling our raises quite often, and has only 3-bet one time. He calls a ton pre-flop so it's not that he's targeting Hero - in fact, of all the people at the table, he seems most convinced that Hero is in fact a good player . He's alright post-flop, but is semi-scared money. We won't make a lot of money off him but he won't make a lot of money off us either, as he's relatively transparent.
  • CO (s2) is a MAWG with ~165bb. He just sat down in the last 30 minutes. He seems to be paying close attention to the game. In the 15 hands he has played, he's been the most aggressive and active player besides Hero. He doesn't know about Hero's shenanigans since Hero hasn't been quite as LAG since he arrived. I would peg him as a live-TAG (which is obviously very different than an online-TAG). He is quite stoic when he plays so it's hard to gauge him.
  • BTN (s3) is an older jovial guy who has played pretty tight-passive over the two hours he has been at the table. He doesn't seem like a thinking player at all, and his view of us is that we are bat**** crazy-maniacal, because we play hands other than 88+ QJ+. He seems to play his hands with tunnel vision, unaware of what other players could possibly have.
  • Seat 4 is away from the table.
  • SB (s5) is a severely tilted older guy, sitting on at least his second buy-in. He has ~90bb. Hero has put him on tilt a few times with some big bets and big bluffs. A couple other people have beat him in pots where he missed his draw, further aggravating him. He's a bad player and a huge spot. Ever since we felted him he has called every raise we've made.
  • BB (s6) is a 30-something woman sitting on ~300bb. I would consider her a loose passive player. She has not gotten involved in too many hands in the hour or so she's been at the table, but we saw her severely overplay some hands at another table while we were walking around earlier in the night. She has seen Hero show a couple bluffs, and gave us snarling looks every time.


The action.
  • No straddle. Pot: 1.5bb($3)
  • UTG+1 folds.
  • Hero (UTG+2) has JT, and raises to 4bb. Hero would love to play a raised flop in position on either the SB or BB. This table is pretty weak and passive, and small raises like this one have often narrowed the field to 2-4 players. Post-flop, most players are very easy to play against. Hero is very much the table captain and everyone is falling in line - Hero has been 3-bet exactly 3 times in 4 hours.
  • Pot: 5.5bb($11)
  • UTG+3 folds.
  • HJ calls without much thought, interest, or anticipation. Hero's read is that he does not have a premium hand, and that he is continuing his standard line of playing passively against Hero in position.
  • Pot: 9.5bb($19)
  • CO peeks at his cards for a standard amount of time, then raises to 10bb. Nothing unusual to note about his demeanor, as is consistent with previous description. All pairs 99+ are in his range, as well as a slew of broadway combos. I would be surprised if he showed up lighter than that, since this is 1/2.
  • Pot: 19.5bb($39)
  • BTN folds.
  • SB unfortunately folds.
  • BB calls, and we cheer on the inside. Much like the CO, she doesn't seem too excited or anxious. Hero's read is that she does not have a premium hand.
  • Pot: 28.5bb($57)
  • Action is back on Hero. Hero thinks the situation over for 5 seconds, then calls, hopefully giving off no tells.
  • Pot: 34.5bb($69)
  • HJ quickly calls without a second thought. I think he calls closing the action 100% of the time here, so his range is not narrowed in the slightest.
  • Pot: 40.5bb($81)
  • Pot raked to: 37bb($74)


The Flop
As the flop comes out, Hero is watching all three players as best he can. Reads:
  • BB: Immediately upon seeing the flop, she seems disinterested. And not in a over-acting sort of way, so we are pretty confident she whiffed completely.
  • HJ: It is hardest to see him behind the dealer, so our read is less reliable here. He seems semi-interested in the flop. He could have hit top pair, a straight draw, or a flush draw. My immediate feeling is that he does not have a monster, as he has telegraphed that in the past by leaning in or turning stone-like.
  • CO: Continues with his stoic demeanor. No information gleaned.

6T7
  • Pot: 37bb($74) after the rake
  • Hero looks at the board and wonders if this could get checked through, which would be a borderline disaster. Half the deck kills my action, the other half puts me behind. I want to get stacks in, so betting seems best. Hero donks out 25bb.
  • Pot: 62bb($124)
  • HJ looks pretty mad, like "I know you're full of ****, but I can't draw!", because $50 is a lot of money. He folds. Does this mean some of our outs are gone? We won't read too much into it - he could just be mad that we are betting again.
  • CO thinks for about 2-3 seconds, then grabs a $100 stack and pushes it across the line. He immediately looks at me when doing so, as if to try to gauge my reaction. I give no reaction (at least as far as I know). In the moment, Hero narrows his range to all JJ+ and AK.
  • Pot: 112bb($224)
  • BB folds as expected.
  • Hero does not want to go into the tank here, because if we have any fold equity, tanking will negate that. All straight and set combinations are 100% within our range here, and Hero decides to represent one of them. It doesn't seem like villain min-raised to induce - it seems like he min-raised to find out where he is at. A shove gets no folds from more competent villains, but at this point I think we have determined Villain might be scared enough to fold some small percentage of the time. Anyway, if we get called, who cares, we have tons of equity. Hero shoves, which is a 105bb effective shove.
    Pot: 217bb($434)
  • CO seems devastated. He "knows" he's behind. Then he makes the crying call.
  • Pot: 322bb($644)

Afterthoughts
  • I list all players at the beginning because I think it is important to know the entire field. Anyone think it is too much information?
  • Maybe the flop gets checked through less often than I expect. If that's the case, then check-shoving (or something close to it) seems like a better line, especially for fold equity.
  • My sizing is too small on the flop I think.
  • Hero definitely should not have put AK in CO's range because villains like CO won't min-raise in that spot - they'll either raise larger or flat.
  • Am I ever getting a player of this type off an over pair with a bet/3bet line on the flop? Even if not, its not like I'm spewing. I ought to have 45%+ equity, I think. So I only need a fold once in a while to make it profitable.
  • I obviously should have just folded pre-flop. Joking aside, I shouldn't fold pre against this line-up, right? Guys?

I'll post results later on, but let's not get caught up in that. Any criticism is appreciated.

Last edited by berninader; 05-23-2016 at 03:03 PM. Reason: a word
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05-23-2016 , 03:06 PM
I love that you gave very good and detailed reads but it's way too long. I'm sure you can find a way to condense it to at least a quarter of your post. I would also go with dollar amounts instead of BBs.

I have no qualms with your hand. I would have played it the same way. No, we're never getting V off an OP but it doesn't matter with our equity.

And don't bother posting results. They don't matter. It's the process that counts.
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05-23-2016 , 03:10 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DTLB
I love that you gave very good and detailed reads but it's way too long. I'm sure you can find a way to condense it to at least a quarter of your post. I would also go with dollar amounts instead of BBs.

I have no qualms with your hand. I would have played it the same way. No, we're never getting V off an OP but it doesn't matter with our equity.

And don't bother posting results. They don't matter. It's the process that counts.
Thank you for the feedback. Next post won't be so long.
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05-23-2016 , 03:55 PM
I was a bit surprised when I ran the equities to see how strong you were to the V's assigned range (JJ+, AKhh)... I made it really close to a coin flip. I don't think you have much FE (but as you said - you really don't need a lot. I could see hands at the bottom of his range (JJ) letting this go.
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05-23-2016 , 05:17 PM
No need to be quite so wordy with your OP. For example, you don't need to give the pot size after every single action, just list the pot on each street.

PF looks good, open is standard given your hand and stack sizes and easy call of the tiny 3b getting good odds.

Given reads, I like the flop lead with the intention of 3-betting all-in, you're flipping equity-wise against a range of JJ+ and AhKh and this line gives you the most FE against the bottom part of that range. If you think that V is the type of player who is incapable of folding an overpair, then I'd just c/c this flop.
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05-23-2016 , 05:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAHZero
No need to be quite so wordy with your OP. For example, you don't need to give the pot size after every single action, just list the pot on each street.

PF looks good, open is standard given your hand and stack sizes and easy call of the tiny 3b getting good odds.

Given reads, I like the flop lead with the intention of 3-betting all-in, you're flipping equity-wise against a range of JJ+ and AhKh and this line gives you the most FE against the bottom part of that range. If you think that V is the type of player who is incapable of folding an overpair, then I'd just c/c this flop.
Thanks for the feedback.

Is my flop leading size too large or too small? I'm now thinking it was too large, because it made the 3-bet shove a little undersized.

Why would you consider C/C on the flop? If we miss the turn, we probably are facing another barrel, getting the wrong odds to call. If we hit the turn, Villain probably shuts down unless he has the backdoor flush draw.

I'm not clear on the statistics when villain is never folding - is it better to call one street or is it better to just shove and realize all our equity? I suppose it depends on the bet size.

Last edited by berninader; 05-23-2016 at 05:33 PM. Reason: a word
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05-23-2016 , 05:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by berninader
Thanks for the feedback.

Is my flop leading size too large or too small? I'm now thinking it was too large, because it made the 3-bet shove a little undersized.

Why would you consider C/C on the flop? If we miss the turn, we probably are facing another barrel, getting the wrong odds to call. If we hit the turn, Villain probably shuts down unless he has the backdoor flush draw.

I'm not clear on the statistics when villain is never folding - is it better to call one street or is it better to just shove and realize all our equity? I suppose it depends on the bet size.
I think your flop sizing was pretty good (~2/3 pot). Don't think the 3-bet shove was that undersized as it was close to a pot-sized raise (V was only getting a bit over 2:1 on his call).

If we don't think we have any FE with a bet/3-bet all-in line, then c/c gives us more playability on later streets. V isn't going to automatically shut down every time you c/c flop, as he may be afraid of giving a free card to hand with a single heart, or he may have a hand like AhAx himself. Also, on the turn you'll still have 14 outs, which means you can correctly c/c up to a pot-sized bet. If V has a hand like QQ/JJ and an overcard falls on the turn, we may also be able to win the pot even if we don't improve.
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05-24-2016 , 03:06 PM
I have not fully considered the hand, but I do want an explanation on why the hero looks 10 years older than he is. I find this more concerning than the actual hand.
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05-24-2016 , 03:49 PM
Grunch

I feel like this hand played out fairly standard. Can't really comment because I think I would have played it the same. We have too much equity to not get it in on the flop so just calling his raise would be terrible if we miss the turn. Your range should also include AQhh. That's about my only critique.
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05-25-2016 , 08:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by JohnHHolliday
I have not fully considered the hand, but I do want an explanation on why the hero looks 10 years older than he is. I find this more concerning than the actual hand.
Hero has raggedy beard and spent the better part of a decade severely sleep-deprived. Hero has been told multiple times he looks a decade older than he is by people who have no reason to lie (ie outside the poker scene).
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05-25-2016 , 08:52 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RAHZero
I think your flop sizing was pretty good (~2/3 pot). Don't think the 3-bet shove was that undersized as it was close to a pot-sized raise (V was only getting a bit over 2:1 on his call).

If we don't think we have any FE with a bet/3-bet all-in line, then c/c gives us more playability on later streets. V isn't going to automatically shut down every time you c/c flop, as he may be afraid of giving a free card to hand with a single heart, or he may have a hand like AhAx himself. Also, on the turn you'll still have 14 outs, which means you can correctly c/c up to a pot-sized bet. If V has a hand like QQ/JJ and an overcard falls on the turn, we may also be able to win the pot even if we don't improve.
Reasoning seems sound for when we whiff on the turn. But would we be shoving every turn card that gives us fold equity or a made hand (heart, A, K, J, T)?
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05-25-2016 , 09:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by StackedYouSon
Grunch

I feel like this hand played out fairly standard. Can't really comment because I think I would have played it the same. We have too much equity to not get it in on the flop so just calling his raise would be terrible if we miss the turn. Your range should also include AQhh. That's about my only critique.
I agree that my range includes AQ, and hope my post didn't seem to ignore that. In fact, I'll try to enumerate my range given my exact line (pre-flop through conclusion of action):
  • 98
  • 66, 77, TT. Maybe once in a while I re-raise pre-flop with TT versus this villain.
  • AT, A9, A8
  • Some subset of all other AX, with higher Xs having more combos.
  • Some subset of other suited hearts that also have straight draws (eg J9).
  • A token combo of T7 for when I had a bought of FPS pre-flop.
  • A token combo of AA for ****s and giggles.
  • Probably some other hands I'm forgetting.

My range is obviously a number of things other than sets and straights, but this is 1/2, where monsters are always lurking under the bed in the typical villain's mind. Despite the fact that those hands make up a small part of my range, 1/2 villains don't usually consider combos correctly.

Last edited by berninader; 05-25-2016 at 09:04 AM. Reason: Too many words
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