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1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep 1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep

08-22-2017 , 01:24 PM
V1: looks like a good player, handles ships well. Isolatin/raising alot preflop and doing continuation bets properly. Has a understanding of Textboards.

The rest of the player some passive fishs the two of us where exploiting.
We have a short history me 3betting 2-3 times because i have position on him and we where deep.
V1 sees Hero also as a winning player. But its the first Time playing each other.

Hero has about 450 in front of him and V1 covers!
TTH:

Passive fish limps utg
V1 middle position makes it 10 to isolate. Did a lot of small sized Bets preflop.
One other guy called
Hero is on the button with KQo. Thought about 3Betting here for Value, but Utg+1 has about 90 and could shuffle in.
My thought prozess was, i just fold out worse hands and keep the hands that dominates me in. Like to 3bet here with suited connectors.
What is your 3bet range here against the wide opening from another reg.
Flop(40): Qj3hh check trough me on the button. I make it 30 (larger size because of the drawheavyboard)
UTG+1 folds, V1 raise to 90. This was susbicous to me because he checked the flop and is reraising here.
I put him on either a straight or flushdraw, or a combodraw, maybe a set (but i believe he would lead on the flop with the top of his value range).
THats the kind of range i would check raise on this kind of flop with the exact same bet size. I wanted to see what he is doing on the turn. Hero called
Turn(220): A V1 checks to Hero. The check is kind of weak to me, so i decided i probably have the best hand and bet 140 (185 left).
V1 calls, River(500): 6 with a possible flush now. V1 bets 200. Hero? Is he ever bluffing in a spot like this?
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-22-2017 , 02:03 PM
There is where playing deep gets tricky. Just because you flopped well doesn't mean you want to build a huge pot.

Preflop is fine. Flop is OK but you should fold to the raise sometimes. On the turn you need to slow down. You are building way to big a pot for TPGK.

On the river, he should have bluffs in his range but how many is very villain dependent. His bet sizing is very value sized, trying to get a call. Since you are not even chopping with AQ I'm inclined to fold.
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-22-2017 , 02:34 PM
Can't see him checking a made hand on the flop on a QJhh flop then going for a check raise when it's so likely to check behind him and have scare cards hit on the turn. Straight draws (from most) would have folded the turn, flush draws probably continue with implied odds in mind, especially Ace high flush draws where the ace hitting is likely to give him the best hand.

What's difficult though, is if he views you as a good player he could potentially flat turn with a hand like J10 or K10 (likely suited given the preflop raise in ep) and turn his hand into a bluff on any river that the flush hits. This is something I do pretty often with my open enders personally.

Getting a good price I would probably just call here, it's a bluff a decent amount of the time and you want to have some spots to put your foot down and not get run over, this might be one of those spots.
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-22-2017 , 03:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by QuadJ
There is where playing deep gets tricky. Just because you flopped well doesn't mean you want to build a huge pot.

Preflop is fine. Flop is OK but you should fold to the raise sometimes. On the turn you need to slow down. You are building way to big a pot for TPGK.

On the river, he should have bluffs in his range but how many is very villain dependent. His bet sizing is very value sized, trying to get a call. Since you are not even chopping with AQ I'm inclined to fold.
This. Check back turn. As played, fold river.
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-22-2017 , 06:33 PM
I would check turn. Why bet? Did you have the K or Q of hearts? Because the hands that make the most sense to me are AKhh, AThh or maybe KThh, but I would expect him to continue KT on the turn, since he now has the nuts. "Naked" nut flush draws are also a possibility. To be honest, I can't really put him on anything that isn't a flush, now that he shoves the river, I'm curious if anyone else can.

Also, I wouldn't 3bet pre-flop with this hand, since I wouldn't want the fish to fold (or shove).
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-23-2017 , 01:47 AM
I think pre is close but I think folding is better
Flop is fine
Turn is 100% a check, betting here is your biggest mistake
Fold river
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-23-2017 , 01:58 AM
im ok calling pre this deep in position althoug 3b is ok too. we also have some passive fish limping a hand that we dominate often who will prob limp call so thats good.

betting flop is good, and as previously mentioned, we can fold some % of the time to flop raise. at 1/2, i prob prefer folding a high % of the time. we wont get over bluffed in these spots and can feel ok folding our 1 pair hands. we will have a lot of better hands that can continue such as QJ, 33, and combo draws like AThh, T9hh, T8hh, 98hh, etc.

it matters if he have K or Q of hearts and if the Q is the heart. for example, villain can potentially be x/r a hand like AQhh if the Q is not a heart

in general though i would tend to let go of these 1 pair hands.

we called preflop in position because we are deep and want to play bigger pots in position with good hands. feels like we are getting sticky with our 1 pair holdings, which is a good way to let the ROI bite us.

just my 2 cents
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-23-2017 , 04:05 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Lordofklock01
Hero is on the button with KQo. Thought about 3Betting here for Value, but Utg+1 has about 90 and could shuffle in.
My thought prozess was, i just fold out worse hands and keep the hands that dominates me in. Like to 3bet here with suited connectors.
This is pretty confused thinking imo, for starters you can never threebet for value because KQo is not going to be ahead of his raising range. Then the "fold out worse hands and keep the hands that dominate me in" is not thinking that applies particularly well to preflop. Postflop, if we bet and the only hands they fold are hands we were beating, that's not a good result, because if we let them see the next street for free they only get one card. Preflop, if we let them see the next street for free they get three cards, which is more likely to drastically change the situation. Unless we have a big pair it's rarely a bad result if everyone folds to us preflop.

The other thing is that even if that reasoning applied, there are plenty of better hands he can fold (random aces, pocket pairs).

Suited connectors aren't actually that great to threebet pre, they're OK but wouldn't be my first choice. The temptation is to construct our ranges the same way we do preflop - meaning value raising both good hands and bad but not hopeless hands, and flatting with the middling stuff. But when light threebetting, removal effects tend to be more important, so suited aces are probably the best light threebetting hand, and stuff like KQo is also pretty decent.
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-23-2017 , 06:39 AM
I checked if i have a hard but no, so i put him on the draw side. After he left the table we talked about the hand and he told me that he had 910hh...
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote
08-23-2017 , 07:40 AM
Semi-grunched (before results).

I fold KQo to a raise unless I know V is raising pretty wide. I don't hate it IP, but I'd still let it go.

I assume hand is 4-way since there's $40 in the pot OTF.

Does $10 work to iso in this game? In the 1/2 games I've played, $10 is getting HU roughly never. Given this guy has made small raises before, I'm more inclined to think that he just generally raises on the small side than that this is an iso raise.

I don't think V is likely to check 2P+ with three other people in the hand, though not impossible. Point for the x/r being a semi-bluff.

The x/r size is fairly small, only 60% of the pot. I'd expect a semi-bluff x/r to be larger, though perhaps absolute bet sizing is at work here. Let's say half a point against the x/r being a semi-bluff.

I think the key is on the turn. V x/r the flop and then checked the turn. If he has a big hand, why not lead out on the turn again? We obviously have something we like.

I actually like the turn bet. If we're x/r again, I think we can easily lay it down. If V leads the river, I think we can easily lay it down. I think most likely hand for V is some kind of draw and that we're probably ahead on the turn. I'd make it a bit smaller, $100. I want to get calls from worse here and any x/r is going to be effectively a jam regardless of our sizing.

We don't want to build a big pot when we're going to face a difficult commitment decision. But I don't think that's going to happen here. Obviously if V calls turn and checks the river we're checking back.

This is obviously highly exploitive of LLSNL V player pool reluctance to bluff for big absolute bets. Against tougher or trickier opponents, we'd be building a pretty big pot and then potentially abandoning it. But 1/2 opponents are not often tough or tricky and we can often get fat value from them where we'd have to play more defensively against better opponents.
1/2 KQ IP against good Player 220bb deep Quote

      
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