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Old 07-17-2017, 04:51 PM   #1
Joey913
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1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

Probably a pretty frequent situation that I'm sure has been discussed before but...

Hero ($550): 30s WG, V just sat down (1st or 2nd hand) so nothing else really needed

V ($200): 60ish WG, just sat down.

V limps UTG +1, 1 other limp, SB completes, Hero raises to $17 w/ QQ in BB, V re-raises to $50. Hero?

I feel like this is AA/KK/AK 90%+ of the time, with the bulk of that being AA/KK. Given stack sizes I'm not sure I even have the odds to set-mine, especially when you factor in the RIO I have to consider if a A or K show up on the flop.

Is folding here too nitty?
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Old 07-17-2017, 04:54 PM   #2
Petrucci
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

No, its not to nitty. Folding here is exploiting the hell out of the well defined nutted limp/reraise range from the old guy- and is good winning poker.

Not folding here is just burning money and hurting your winrate.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:00 PM   #3
BrianBoyko
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Originally Posted by Petrucci View Post
No, its not to nitty. Folding here is exploiting the hell out of the well defined nutted limp/reraise range from the old guy- and is good winning poker.

Not folding here is just burning money and hurting your winrate.
If Hero didn't have QQ, but instead had KK, would you make the same recommendation?
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:13 PM   #4
Petrucci
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Originally Posted by BrianBoyko View Post
If Hero didn't have QQ, but instead had KK, would you make the same recommendation?

Are you trying to make a point with your question, or do you just have the need to blast me with semantics?

KK is different from QQ, because we are crushed by 1 single hand and not 2. Also we are a big fav against AK,wich admittedly isnt that big part of his limp/reraising range- but it still makes the total overall scenario alot better.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:19 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

Call. Zero info.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:24 PM   #6
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
factor in the RIO I have to consider if a A or K show up on the flop.
There are no RIO if you just fold when flop has an A or K.

The fact that he just sat down makes me want to hold off on assuming the AA/KK/AK just yet, but maybe you feel OK assuming he's not drunk or tilting.

Altho you don't have odds to flop a set, they do help here. Given that the guy just sat down, I'd be inclined to call the extra $33 and see a flop and then see how you feel about your read then.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:31 PM   #7
Joey913
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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There are no RIO if you just fold when flop has an A or K.
So you are folding when a Q and either an A or K flop? That is the RIO I was talking about. A certain percentage (albeit low, but it still needs to be part of the equation) of the time when we hit our Q on the flop, an A or a K will also be on the flop and given the pre-flop action, that could be very dangerous.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:45 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Originally Posted by Joey913 View Post
So you are folding when a Q and either an A or K flop? That is the RIO I was talking about. A certain percentage (albeit low, but it still needs to be part of the equation) of the time when we hit our Q on the flop, an A or a K will also be on the flop and given the pre-flop action, that could be very dangerous.
Sorry, I misunderstood. Obv you never fold on a AQx or KQx flop here.

I just meant you could call and fold if there is an A or K but no Q. You don't have odds to flop a set even if you somehow knew your opponent would never flop a set at the same time as you so in any event it's can't be the sole reason to call, just something to combine with the odds that his range is wider here than AA/KK.
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Old 07-17-2017, 05:47 PM   #9
Petrucci
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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There are no RIO if you just fold when flop has an A or K.

The fact that he just sat down makes me want to hold off on assuming the AA/KK/AK just yet, but maybe you feel OK assuming he's not drunk or tilting.

Altho you don't have odds to flop a set, they do help here. Given that the guy just sat down, I'd be inclined to call the extra $33 and see a flop and then see how you feel about your read then.
Ok. So we call the extra $33, and see a flop.

What do we do on 336 flop? Or 249 flop?

We check and he C bets like 50 or 60 bucks.

If you want to call/stackoff, what range do you put him on at this point?

If you want to fold on these flops, then why are we calling pre? Are you advocating to setmine for $33 preflop with 200 stacks effective?
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:06 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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What do we do on 336 flop? Or 249 flop?

We check and he C bets like 50 or 60 bucks
Often folding!
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Old 07-17-2017, 06:17 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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If you want to call/stackoff, what range do you put him on at this point?
Not meaning to be glib here... A cbet isn't going to affect my range much here, and I'm not going to waste everyone's time by staring the dude down for 3 minutes to get a read, but I feel OK flatting the limp-reraise and seeing how he reacts to the flop to possibly get more of a read.
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Old 07-17-2017, 07:17 PM   #12
BrianBoyko
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Are you trying to make a point with your question, or do you just have the need to blast me with semantics?
Honest question. I've played a bit of live 1/2 lately, and I've yet to see limp-reraise *not* be AA specifically.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:09 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

Against 60ish unknown, I'm folding. Obviously not loving it, but against the "range of ranges" of unknown LLSNL 60 year old players I think QQ is behind.

I don't like calling. SPR will be 1.5 and the flop action isn't really going to tell us much. If there's no A or K and he cbets are we calling (to sniff out whenever we're ahead while stacking off to KK+)? If there is an A or a K OTF, are we folding (cause now we're sure he couldn't be cbetting a worse hand)?

If his range is pretty wide pre, let's jam. If it's tight, let's fold. Calling just mostly sets up an equally difficult flop decision.
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Old 07-17-2017, 08:35 PM   #14
BackDoorFlush
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

Fold and don't show anyone.
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Old 07-17-2017, 09:00 PM   #15
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Originally Posted by BrianBoyko View Post
Honest question. I've played a bit of live 1/2 lately, and I've yet to see limp-reraise *not* be AA specifically.
if the reraise is a short stack shove for less than 50bb then definitely. I had an old guy turn up with KTo with a 40bb limp reshove

I've also seen KK from reraise (non shove)
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Old 07-18-2017, 04:46 AM   #16
Petrucci
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Originally Posted by BrianBoyko View Post
Honest question. I've played a bit of live 1/2 lately, and I've yet to see limp-reraise *not* be AA specifically.

Alright, i see. Didnt mean to be grumpy against you just to clarify that.

Like yeah, i totally agree. In my experience its KK or AA like an insane percent of the time. Often it comes from older nits or rocks, who are tired of not getting any action on these hands.

So they make a (retarded) adjustment of limping them, in a desperat attempt to get action and that somebody else can raise it up before they can repop. The adjustment is kind of retarded of course, because what they really should do is to dig into the reason behind why everybody turbofolds when a guy that havent played a hand for 3 hours suddenly raises to $15 UTG in a 1-2 game. They try to solve the symptoms with the limp/reraise, instead of going at the main problem.

But that its too complicated for them or out of their comfort zone (cause the adjustment is obvious, you need to raise more hands than QQ+ and AK), but its more convinient for them just to continue to nit it up, and do some limp/reraising instead with their ultra premiums. They just dont want to widen the amount of hands their playing. What they want is simply to sit there with their coffee or couple of beers on a wednesday out free from the wife, waiting for the nutz and get paid.

So its all about understanding the psychology and level of thinking behind how these guys approach the game, then the big picture make sense after all.
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:53 AM   #17
Ihadtrips
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

Snap fold. Anyone who says call probably doesn't play very much live 1/2. You want to have at least 10x the amount you have to call to set mine because of the times you flop a set and still lose or don't get paid off. Villain isn't deep enough here.
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Old 07-21-2017, 04:54 AM   #18
Ihadtrips
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Re: 1/2: Fold QQ pre to l/r vs. unkown?

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Originally Posted by Amanaplan View Post
Call. Zero info.
Except for the countless times we've seen a LRR go to showdown and it's QQ-AA. I think I saw this be 99 and AK once each and the other 20 times I've seen it in 500 hours or so at 1/2 it's been QQ-AA
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