Constant scenario

Hero opens $20 in EP with QQ/KK, 3 calls

Flop ($80): 654ccs
Hero ??

Stacks ~$250-350

Seems like every option sucks. If we bet and get raised, we have to fold. If we check and someone bets, we have to "re-evaluate". Even if we do continue, we are vulnerable to terrible turn and river cards.

My default is to usually bet/bet these kind of boards but 2 weeks back, I read a thread where people suggested just c/folding in these spots. So I've started checking in these spots and been getting burnt as follows:

Scenario 1:

Hero checks, Checks around

Turn ($80): 8ss
Hero checks, Random V bets $25, folds to Hero who is "priced in" and calls

River ($130): 9s
Hero checks, V bets $35, Hero HAS to call for that "price" and loses to KQss for runner runner flush

This would never happen had Hero simply cbet flop.

------------------------------------------

Scenario 2:

Hero checks, LAG cbets $40, Whale in blinds calls, Hero decides to "peel one"

Turn ($200): 9h
Whale in blinds donks $45, Hero is "priced" in, LAG also calls

River ($335): Ad
Whale in blinds donks $40, Hero is "priced in" and calls, LAG calls

Whale shows busted FD and LAG shows A7s to take the pot down.

Again, could have been avoided by cbetting flop and barreling turn big.

I also find these spots tough. So you really have two options. One is get *way* more comfortable playing these spots postflop. I'm a session away from 3500 hours, and I still have a difficult time in these spots; doubt that is going to change. So I do something different preflop. I either limp to reraise, or I raise larger. Yeah, you're still going to end up in these spots from time to time, and you'll have to do your best when you do; but if this is a "constant scenario" then you better get good at it real fast or else you're going to be in real trouble. These hands will define your sessions, making every other thing you do (that nice little value bet, that nice little fold, etc.) practically meaningless.

Gputyourselfinbetterspots,imoG

GG and I have always agreed on one thing, a lot of the time the answer is to raise more preflop.

You should be checking every hand as the pfr on 654 boards. Regardless of if you have AJ, 78, QQ, or 55. This way your opponents can't immediately attack you when you check. Your weaker hands are protected by the fact that you have strong hands in your range.

In the hands you mention, I think you played them reasonably given how terrible the bet sizes of your opponents are. You got to see a showdown very cheaply and in both cases you got unlucky on the end.

With either strategy (betting strong or checking) you will get burned sometimes. The point is that these flops are really bad for your entire range as the PFR so its preferable to check the flop and protect your weak hands with stronger hands.

Why are you open raising so much preflop? Were there limpers in these hands? Should raise closer to $10-12 with no limpers.

He got 3 calls.

If anything, he should be raising more.

Obviously table dependent, but if someone raised $10 in EP in my game, we'd be going 7way to the flop always.

GimoG

Check these flops and realize that you have 1 pair

That's results oriented. Raising so large preflop really inhibits your ability to play all of the hands you want to play the same way. We don't want to raise this much with JTs or other hands like that so if we're limping our medium hands and raising huge with our good hands we're setting ourselves up to get owned.

I don't play JTs in EP anymore, so I'm not as concerned about that. And if I was worried about that, I could simply limp my monsters (to reraise) to defend against that.

I simply don't want to be going very multiway to the flop in lol < 3 SPR pots where my first postflop bet pretty much commits me. Others are fine with this spot, though.

And I don't think I'm being results oriented. Even OP himself said this is a "constant scenario"; most EP raises at my table also end up quite multiway as soon as there is one caller.

GcluelessNLnoobG

Both hands were opened to $20 over 1 limper sorry. If I opened to $12-15, I'd get atleast 6 calls lol.

And do what when these droolers keep betting 1/4 PSB and suck you in?

Nobody is really "attacking" me in these games so I'm not worried about balance, I'd bet 55/78 here all day knowing I will get calls. This would totally change in a 2/5 game.

Yes, but only if we're playing against good regulars or something, not these weekend droolers who only play their hands.

There's nothing inherently wrong with getting more calls. You still have an equity advantage, you just have to realize that you need to make a stronger hand to win the pot.

GG, so what hands are you:

A) raising in EP?
B) limp/rr/gii in EP?
C) limp/rr/folding in EP?

Well, call obviously.

Look, there's this concept in PLO. It's called seeing a safe turn. It applies to various spots but overall it's the realization that there is more than one street to this game and to play your equity accordingly.

On a 456cc flop, you're actually going to get some great turns. Any non club 4,5,T-K.

If little action was shown otf (a 1/4 psb and a call or two), you can now donk/fold these turns for like 1/2 or 2/3 pot.

If medium action was shown otf, you can check call again or make a thin fold.

If a lot of action was shown otf, you can get away the same way in which you "get away" from AK on Q57. Its all relative.

KK on 456 isn't some huge travesty, it's just another hand. When you start thinking like this you'll play better in these spots.

well put

Why can't we just check *some* strong hands, instead of all? Checking aces and kings seems ok if it's super multiway on very wet flop, but other overpairs should be bet, no? Don't we want to bluff with strong draws on occasion in these multiway pots?
Overall, as the pfr, we still have the stronger range than any 1 opponent. It's just if there's 5 villains then there's like a 45-50% chance we are beat otf. But overall, we still have a stronger range than any other single villain. So why should any one of them get the go ahead to bet instead of us? P.s. You might be right - im just interested

But how do I avoid feeling like a FN FISH when I "donk" those safe turns after c/c flop? It's just not in my nature to take a c/c, donk line, lol.

Also, what about the times when you check KK, or even worse QQ-99 on 654 flops and let overcards catch up OTT, like I did in OP? The smaller the overpair, the worse it gets. It'd feel stupid to check JJ and let KQ hit a Q OTT.

You can check/call donk safe turns with your entire value range on this board, even strong hands like sets and the nuts.

Don't worry about being drawn out on. This is not a good board for your range. When you're a PFR and the board comes 654, your hand's equity went way down. And that's fine.

Another point is that you might not play a style where you ever have 78 or even 66/55/44 here. And that's a problem imo. You need to occasionally raise those hands so that you can actually have a strong hand when the board comes like this.

Easy, just c/f flop on super wet connected boards in most scenarios for a single raised multiway pot when you're OOP....I raised red KK UTG yesterday, got 3 callers, and the flop was T87ss. I just c/f, player that bet shows J9ss after everyone folds.

Please dont put results until people have commented, and 1 hand at a time

Hand 1 is actually a good flop for you, having checked the flop, you played it fine, but this is a flop you should bet

The board is blocking a lot of straights, so this is actually a clean board to cbet wide. 23 amd 37 are 2 of the 3 straights so no need to worry.

I didn't really think about it too much, but you might be right. 654 could be an ok board to c-bet compared to 765 and 876.

I think T87ss is much different and far worse than 654 or 543 two-tone.

Sure, but I'm still c/f 654 OOP vs 3 players too. 543 less likely to c/f. Checking or betting depends on stack sizes and who the players are.