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Old 08-02-2011, 02:30 PM   #1
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1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

Villain 1 - SB ($350) Late twenties muscle shirt guy with hot girlfriend railing him in empty seat at table. Waitress just delivered food and she is feeding him french fries to the amusement of other players. He seems to be playing OK but somewhat loose passive and noticably "defensive" any time he folds. Ie. he seems to be explaining for the benefit of his girl that he is not being pushed around but instead making good decisions.

Villain 2 - BB ($180) 20 something hasn't played many hands. Limped a few times and opened for $11 once with AK winning a modest pot at showdown w/ TPTK. He has continued to the turn in a number of limped pots before folding.

Hero - CO ($410) Sat at table about an hour ago with $200. Have won mostly small to medium sized pots playing somewhat passively but restealing twice from really bad Asian bluffing guy. I have been open raising more in the past 20 minutes though.

1 limper to hero who Makes it $12 with AK

V1 (SB) Calls
V2 (BB) Raises to $25
Hero calls $25
V1 calls $25

I put V2's 3betting range squarely on QQ+. V1 could have a pretty wide calling range here. Any suited A, Suited or connected broadways maybe some sort of smaller Suited connector or small to medium PP.

Flop ($72) 678

V1 leads for $15
V2 raises to $65

I am focused on my developing erection and how to take both stacks. Of course 9T is getting my stack and is at least a part of V1s range.

I am certain V2 has an overpair here. Judging from V1's physical reaction I think he likes this action but is clearly trying to gage where I am at. I suspect V1 hit this flop pretty hard. Maybe a set, maybe even 99 with the 9 of or TJ QT QJ

If I re-pop it here I am thinking V1 will come along but I am not sure V2 is committed given this flop.

If I play it slow and make it look weak like maybe I am drawing and just flat I can see if V1 wants to jam over top. If he flats we have a $270 pot and can look to get it in on the turn.

OTT A paired board, a 5 9 or T will probably suck. Any other could kill any future action.

What is the best line to take here?

Last edited by cAmmAndo; 08-02-2011 at 02:41 PM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:42 PM   #2
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

Quote:
Originally Posted by cAmmAndo View Post
Flop ($72) 678

V1 leads for $15
V2 raises to $65

I am focused on my developing erection and how to take both stacks. Of course 9T is getting my stack and is at least a part of V1s range.
Just raise. It's 1/2, people love to call because they put you on 9t (no clubs) or A only or just JJ. Let them call.

Just to point out, while 9T is part of his range, there is one combo (and only 3 combos of straight flushes total) and should be negated this deep.

I raise and let them do whatever. Calling can't be that bad, maybe we let a naked straight draw catch up some, but I think life is simpler if we let stations station.
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Old 08-02-2011, 02:48 PM   #3
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

definitely call. raising gets the bb's stack pretty much always but you stand to make a lot more by giving sb a chance to call or even jam a str8/set/draw etc. i think sb is deep enough to call 50 here really often too, and would never fold a sfd. its not like theres any turns we're scared of and only clubs can kill our action. bb's most likely hand is QQc and getting both to fold would be devastating.

oop id re raise or w/e action is but we crush everything and we're in position to murder everyone on the turn. def tank a bit before calling.
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Old 08-02-2011, 04:47 PM   #4
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

jamming looks weaker imo than flatting. i think flatting turns ur hand face up into AcXx or the nuts. flatting cant ever be bad tho. and the clubs u listed as being bad for you are not bad for you. dont be pessimistic, also why didnt u 4b pre?
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:11 PM   #5
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

why would let him min raise you with ak suited preflop? make it 50+ pre then you got a great line on that flop because he will stack you with any pocket pair with a club.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:28 PM   #6
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

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also why didnt u 4b pre?
Interestingly I actually will play AKs very aggressively PF regularly including 4 betting with it. More recently I have been paying more attention to game flow and establishing a winning image as early in the session as possible. My planned session length for this particular night was only 3 hours max. Having doubled my stack in the first hour I felt I was in a good position at the table with the image I wanted at this point in the session.

In this spot I felt confident in playing these villains post flop. One of my criteria for 4betting AK though is that the 3 bettor has to be capable of 3 betting AK and PPs QQ under and capable of folding his AK and QQ or worse pairs at least some of the time. I felt confident V2 was QQ+. Could I get him to fold QQ and win the 40 bucs pre? a percentage of the time yes but in this session at this time against this villiain with his min raise pre I wanted to take a 3 way flop for $13 more in position rather than make a bloated 2way PF pot. I did not want an all in PF race or flip as an underdog to KK/AA.

Last edited by cAmmAndo; 08-02-2011 at 05:55 PM.
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Old 08-02-2011, 05:31 PM   #7
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

i think you should just fold. you are clearly up against 9c Tc.

still laughing at the erection line. seriously, though, how do you flop the nut flush? man i haven't done that in weeks.

i think i just smooth call here. you have position. maybe V1 gets out of line and has Qc Qx and repops it for us.
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:10 PM   #8
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

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why would let him min raise you with ak suited preflop? make it 50+ pre then you got a great line on that flop because he will stack you with any pocket pair with a club.
The guy I've seen open raise once in an hour just min raised my open that was called by the SB. What is the point of a 4 bet minraise? Are we trying to build a Preflop pot with A high agaist the guy who is almost always a slight favorite and has us in "not great" to "really bad" shape a lot?
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Old 08-02-2011, 06:13 PM   #9
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

*grunch*

V2 minraised you pre, then raised 5x V1's donk bet into the PFR (which V2 did as well). V2 has a hand here a lot, probably TT+/AJ+ with a club. V1 seems like he's trying to draw cheaply or protect a pair. I don't think you'll get his stack unless he has a hand or chases, and there's nothing you can do about that. V2, on the other hand, wants money in the pot now. Even if you minraise him and he calls, the turn is a 1/2 pot shove. Your minraise is for almost all of V1's stack, so it might be an extra $50 or so in on the flop.
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Old 08-02-2011, 07:19 PM   #10
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

V2 is never folding to a raise has hes already put in 90$ of his 180 stack and if V1 folds then we just get it in on the turn reguardless of what peels off...

Raising turns your hand face up and i feel V1 would fold to a raise. I call here and let V1 act 1st on the turn and let him bluff off his stack w his QQc. the pot will be ~270 OOT if V1 calls. just get it in on the turn when the blank comes and he puts us on the Acx draw.

Flopping the 'nuts' easy game.
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Old 08-03-2011, 12:25 PM   #11
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

Quote:
1 limper to hero who Makes it $12 with AK

V1 (SB) Calls
V2 (BB) Raises to $25
Hero calls $25
V1 calls $25

I put V2's 3betting range squarely on QQ+. V1 could have a pretty wide calling range here. Any suited A, Suited or connected broadways maybe some sort of smaller Suited connector or small to medium PP.

Flop ($72) 678

V1 leads for $15
V2 raises to $65
I decide that I want to keep V1 on the hook here and tank for 30 seconds before calling $65.

V1 thinks for a few seconds and calls.

Turn ($267) Offsuit 5
V1 Checks V2 Checks

V1 has $260 left V2 Has $90

I shove V1 calls rather quickly and V2 Tanks before calling his last $90.

River offsuit 7 pairing the board.

V1 shows Q high flush V2 shows his neighbor KK before mucking and I take the pot.

Knowing the results it may not have made a lot of difference here but I wasn't sure after the hand if playing the flop slow was the best line.

Also curious on any thoughts as to the meta game effect of playing the nuts fast.

Last edited by cAmmAndo; 08-03-2011 at 12:39 PM.
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Old 08-03-2011, 02:45 PM   #12
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

I can't believe KK called without the Kc and with 4 to a straight.
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:24 PM   #13
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

Grunch: I'm ok w/ flatting a tight player's mini 3b IP with AK preflop.

OTF: V2 has put in 1/2 his stack with his flop raise so he's probably committed to the pot at this point (although he might be one of those guys that will put in 1/2 his stack and then fold...) so I think we should concentrate on getting as much of V1's stack as possible. He'll probably repop it with a set or a made straight and by flatting we give him better odds to call with his inferior draws.

Although, if V2 is the type of player to put in 1/2 his stack and fold then there are probably a ton of scare cards for him that could come OTT and 3betting the flop might be the way the only way to get his stack. But then again 3b OTF is going to look really strong and might just scare him off anyways (especially if V1 doesn't fold).

So I say flat.
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Old 08-03-2011, 03:41 PM   #14
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Re: 1/2 Flopped Nut Flush - best line for max value

Grunch. Tank, Flat call. You think V1 is really strong so he'll definitely re-raise with a set, believing one of you has a draw. You act last on the turn, too. Awesome situation.
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