hi

i was wondering if reading about limit hold em will help me analyze situations better in NL hold em, i mean i feel that limit hold em is much more technical compared to NLHE

thanks for the input,

Does playing checkers help you think about chess? See...maybe... I would learn it more so you have a choice about what to play, depending on how you feel (action-oriented or slower-thinking) and which cardroom you find yourself in.

I am not sure that PLAYING limit will help your no limit game THAT much. They are different games. Certainly some limit concepts are parallel (such as semi-bluffing and getting money in with an equity advantage), but properly exploitative gameplay in the two games is so different that you probably won't be helped that much.

On the other hand, I do think that THINKING about limit could very well help no limit players. The concepts that we explore every day here, such as putting players on ranges, measuring equity and expected value, getting maximum and thin value, knowing when to bluff and when not to, etc., are concepts that people playing other forms of poker should also be thinking about in relation to their games. So even if you don't play much limit, reading these forums and thinking about the hands that are posted could be helpful to your game.

I still play some NL, and I have found my Limit experience definitely helps in things like assigning ranges and sharpening your pot equity/odds calcs. However, these are not exactly rocket science and could easily be learned from either. Limit, just gives your more hands per hour, more multiway situations, and more emphasis on pushing equity.

That said, I find when I make the occasional switch back, I'm rusty on key NL concepts such as bet sizing and SPR planning.
So, if you want to make NL your thing, just keep playing it and spend some time on this forum to brush up on the rest.

EDIT: I'll add that knowing both is critical if your room warrants a focus on table selection.
I believe I'm a better limit player, but my adjusted winrate is a bit better in NL because I typically only play when the games are easy.

I'm also trying to learn Stud and O8 and will be curious to see how that helps in my LHE or NLHE.

If you apply your newfound LHE knowledge correctly to NL, it will help you. If you apply it incorrectly, it will hurt you.

If you took the time to learn the skills of shorthanded LHE, it would probably help your deep stacked NL game. Good players in 6m games are focused on playing vs. wide ranges of hands, working hard to consider how to hide information, and getting maximum value on every street. I assume these skills would translate well into deep stacked NL. If you look at the LHE forums (especially SSSH), you'd see that range discussions started there before they became widespread in NL (at least given my limited understanding of NL forum talk). A couple years ago, I saw people touting new concepts of playing your range vs. villain's range and my thought was, "we've done that for years". Maybe the guys saying it were re-hashing old concepts to sell books.

Agree also about the game selection side -- Bart talks on Deuce Plays about seeing a can't miss 40/80 or 60/120 LHE game and getting up from his NL table to play. If you can't play the game of the best game in the room, you could miss out.

OTOH, if you're playing capped buyin NL, I'm not as sure. You can learn things from LHE. Could you learn more faster focusing on the game that you're actually playing? How good are you at translating concepts? In the world of SPRs of 4-6, I'm not sure that LHE turn and river concepts apply -- you're in hands where you're committed by that point and thin value betting from LHE doesn't seem to really apply. At some point, you're like a basketball player asking if you should take up tennis to improve your footwork... maybe. If the LHE games are very good and play large near you, the concept of playing both well is more attractive. Mostly, you see LHE players going the other way.

I agree with both of these things. Thinking about how to get value or bluff or hero call when the size of the bet is really tiny is good practice for how to get value or bluff or hero call when the size of the bet is flexible / much larger. It's good practice to change that one variable and see how it affects every street.

That's bizarre. I was never a world-class NL player, but I was well aware of ranges after a year or two, say 2006. Even Harrington's first book gives a few examples of range calculation. Flynn/Mehta/Miller talk a lot about it.

Or are you saying specifically playing your range, i.e. merging ranges and becoming less exploitable? Even so, I'm sure people were talking about this stuff all the time in 2008.

I absolutely think it does. It did for me atleast i should say. it gave me a better feel for how often people have certain hands (calling hands raising hands folding hands) because so many more hands go to showdown. obviously you have to adjust it between the games but i think i learned alot about holdem from playing limit.

If you learnt limit, it would help your limit game...
Thats it.

That's a little narrow. I have no doubt that my knowledge of different games helps reinforce each other's concepts. Now, whether i would have been "better off" (in $, or in enjoyment) specializing in one and playing it for years, well, that's a great question.

I think the answer is yes, but how long does it take to get you the skills in LHE that will improve your NL game?

As a primarily LHE player who prefers playing the 2/3 game at my casino over 8/16 when I wait for a 20/40 seat (because of rake and profitability), I think the #1 skill that NL players fail at is valuebetting. Playing winning LHE is all about thin valuebetting and knowing that against the majority of the players if you are going to check/call, you are better off betting because you are more likely to get called by worse than bet from worse.

Here is an example of a NL hand where I wasn't sure if I had the best hand or bluffed because NL players always take lol too long to make decisions cause hey, thats how they do it on TV.

An EP player raises in 2/3 to $10 and there is a call and I call in LP w/ 88. Maybe 5 to the flop. Flop is J32 and checked to a preflop caller who bets $25 ish and I am directly behind him and call and I am the only caller. Turn is another little card and he checks, I bet $50 and he tanks for almost a minute (lol live NL) and folds.

Granted you are less likely to get called in NL so you usually can't get 3 streets of value out of 3rd pair, and are likely to not be sure if you are valuebetting or bluffing on some streets, but whatever.

Here is an example hand of thin valuebetting where 90% of the table thought I was crazy.

20/40 and a kill pot (30/60 and killer posts a live $30). Killer is in EP and one guy limps button, SB folds, and I call the extra $10 with K5o in the BB. Flop is Q54 and I bet and the killer calls and limper folds. Turn is a T and I bet and limper calls. River is an A and I bet and he calls and MHIG.

Since diving into limit, I've become worse at NL, I feel (though I really haven't played NL much recently).

That being said, there's still portable lessons between games (range balance, properly playing certain opponent styles, etc). Things will change, though, like 2nd pair serving as a value hand in LHE, while depending on the spot, it's a bluffcatcher in NLHE.

If you are not good in playing multiway pots, it will definitely help. For example if you play in fairly loose 2/5 & 5/10 games you will benefit. You wouldn't believe how many solid players I find struggling in multiway pots.

I for one am a strong believer in learning limit before no limit if you are trying to play live poker.

I think it would actually help a decent amount in that nl players, or at least bad nl players tend to be super polarized in lots of spots. Bad limit holdem players are as well, but it's a lot easier to snap call river bluffs vs polarized opponents when it's 1 big bet rather than a stack. That being said, just recognizing that leak has help my nl game a lot (even though I still myself pretty bad)

I just think of all the times ive called a river bet with like Q high and won and villian tells me, this is why limit is dumb, you wouldn't have called 2k, when in reality I'm thinking, this is probably a laughably bad river bluff and id happily
Snap call 2k.

Since we are getting into specifics, I will add one.

I have found that way too many live NL players are VERY MUBSy about raise sizes with big hands. The result is when they get a hand like AA or KK in early position, they either take a completely unbalanced limp-rr line (which also leaves them in a tiny pot when nobody raises) or they raise huge trying to force everyone out of the pot.

I suspect playing a bunch of limit would really help these players realize that it's not nearly the end of the world when you raise AA and get 5 callers. You still win a lot of money; indeed, you make more money when you win because of all the callers and the likelihood of a second-best hand being made.