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Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad

09-20-2015 , 06:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
There was previously a hand posted here where villain 3bs preflop. Flop comes 9 high, we have 99. Flop goes 5 bets. Turn is an ace, we bet and villain raises or 3b or 4b or something. It is really really easy to say, "Pot is big, at least call down". It is really easy to say "Pot is big, we have set, at least call down". But if you want to be a complete poker player, you need to do all three things mentioned at the beginning of my post. If your analysis says that villain virtually always has AA here, then you fold turn, and calling down could be a sizeable mistake.
I kinda of disagree, not because you call down and loose that it is a mistake.
If you take a GTO approach, there is a minimim of a calling range you need.
If the hand you call with is a loser it still might be right to call base on your range.
Maybe you made a mistake in a exploitable sense that because his a nit , you did not shrink your calling range enough, but this is imo "very subjectif analysis" and not reliable on a lot factors ( opponent might be tilting, low hands sample, he might try to change his play for w.e reason, etc.).

So i do not mind make some "loose call" that you might consider a mistake ( based on exploitable motives) if my hand is strong enough vs any normal opponent WHEN the pot is big .
I just think in big pot, the risk of making a mistake cost too much for applying exploitable concept instead of some GTO calling range.

So yeah, never folding a set for example in big pot ( unless under very special circumstances , like 4flush card with a bet and a raise before me , that might never happened) is fine for me , no matter the line of villain chooses.
But obv. this situation is not even close in the hand we speak of here, disregarding villain action on the turn.

Give me some small to medium size pot and i agree with you but for me, the size of the pot dictate a lot more my strategy than the range of my opponent ..

Last edited by Montrealcorp; 09-20-2015 at 06:42 PM.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-21-2015 , 01:00 AM
Raise pre, call river, easy game. You are very close to the top of your range on the river and you will get crushed if you fold stuff this high in your range for one bet in a pot this size.
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-21-2015 , 07:23 PM
All this talk about what you do in general with a set getting 11:1 is pointless because this is not a typical scenario.

Most flushes don't check the turn. Most 8/16 villains don't bluff 3-bet the river.

Raise pre, as played call river. If you want to debate something more useful and generalizable, think about the flop.

1. We raise and Villain coldcalls, flop checked to us. Cbet?

2. We cbet flop villain raises. When do we call/fold?

3. We check flop and villain bets. Worst hand we peel with? We have a check-raising range here?
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-22-2015 , 07:30 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
All this talk about what you do in general with a set getting 11:1 is pointless because this is not a typical scenario.

Most flushes don't check the turn. Most 8/16 villains don't bluff 3-bet the river.

Raise pre, as played call river. If you want to debate something more useful and generalizable, think about the flop.

1. We raise and Villain coldcalls, flop checked to us. Cbet?

2. We cbet flop villain raises. When do we call/fold?

3. We check flop and villain bets. Worst hand we peel with? We have a check-raising range here?
I'm just taking a stab here to see what you think.

I raise pf, villain cold calls, and limper calls, I'm putting villain on a wide range - sc's, Axs, any small pp, unsuited broadway (think he 3-bets with suited broadway). On the flop, 3-handed, I'd tend to c-bet 100% time (thoughts?). If villain raises and limper in front of me calls, I fold. If villain raises and limper folds, I'd peel with pp, overcards, A9, any flush/straight draws. He could have top pair, but he can also have a flush/straight draw, might even do this with something like A2s. I'm also curious if you'd consider a bluff c/r strategy here if a 3rd or 4th club falls, or a straight card.

I'm all ears!
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09-23-2015 , 07:17 AM
need a poker teacher!!!
Worst Fold Ever aka I Play Bad Quote
09-23-2015 , 02:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CrazyLond
I think a lot of otherwise good players talk themselves into folding too much in big pots, especially at smaller stakes. I mean when you are getting 11-1 you should be losing 11 out of 12 times that you call closing the action, and I don't think most people are.

Also, I agree with Rodeo that posting the results of a hand is likely to generate a bias in people, and probably no one is going to reply and say you were right to fold.

And raise preflop. You should probably never have an overlimping range after 1 other limper at a short handed table.
This^

Especially this
After 1 limper and not in the blinds, you should have only two preflop actions. Raise or fold, period. Follow this rule religiously for now and you will improve your win rate if you are even a halfway descent post flop player.
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09-28-2015 , 10:20 PM
His line is so fishy, checking IP OTT and 3!ing the river. Definitely never folding he has the nut flush or nothing.

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10-16-2015 , 05:01 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by phunkphish
I dislike the generalization that "Pot is big, must call". That is poor analysis. You are putting too much emphasis on the size of the pot. Consider the strength of your hand, and where it fits in your range. Put your opponent on a range. Sometimes, you beat literally 0% of that range.

Say we have 44 in a 6way pot that was capped PF. Board comes A25-T-9. PF capper bets river, and its folded to you, last to act, getting 20-1.

This is my interpretation of your advice: "The pot is so big! we might be good, call."
The proper solution is to put your opponent on a range, compare it to your hand, and consider the price. The same thing you do with any river spot. You should not be swayed into irrational decisions just because the pot is really big.


In the actual hand, we have a set. That is really strong. Villain's line doesn't make sense, doesn't rep much. That is why we call. Not because "pot is so big, closing the action"
:

True story
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