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Old 12-07-2016, 01:52 AM   #1
NittyOldMan1
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When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Just wondering, because it seems like deception has just been costing me bets lately...

Heres an example, I have the ACES utg in a full ring 2/4 online game, and I raise. the next guy 3 bets, and everyone folds to the big blind to calls 2 cold. I just call.

Flop is 899 two diamonds, BB checks, I check, preflop 3 bettor bets, BB calls, I check raise. preflop 3 bettor 3 bets. I'm putting him on a smaller overpair. BB folds and I just call.

Turn another 9, I check (I want to check-raise again) and he checks? (oops)

river 6, I bet and he calls with JJ and I lost a few bets!

Now I just wondering how he checked turn with JJ...what is he putting me on?
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Old 12-07-2016, 01:54 AM   #2
jdr0317
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Not 4 betting the flop is lighting $ on fire in the long run, IMO.
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Old 12-07-2016, 09:56 AM   #3
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

"Now I just wondering how he checked turn with JJ...what is he putting me on?"

A bigger overpair.

I'd 4 bet the flop.
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Old 12-07-2016, 12:06 PM   #4
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
"Now I just wondering how he checked turn with JJ...what is he putting me on?"

A bigger overpair.
+1

List out all the hands you play the way you did. What other hands do you raise/call preflop, then check/raise/call on the flop, then check on the turn?
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Old 12-07-2016, 02:09 PM   #5
TheDarkKnight
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

I find that I very rarely take deceptive lines at 8/16 and lower (although I will occasionally play a hand atypically against a thinking opponent that has a good idea how I play), but that I've had to incorporate it a bit more into my game at the 20/40 level.
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Old 12-07-2016, 04:25 PM   #6
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Just regarding preflop, I tend to agree with the school of thought that says it's okay to not cap with aces when you are heads up (for deception), but if pot is multiway they should be capped every time.
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Old 12-07-2016, 04:41 PM   #7
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

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Originally Posted by TheDarkKnight View Post
I find that I very rarely take deceptive lines at 8/16 and lower (although I will occasionally play a hand atypically against a thinking opponent that has a good idea how I play), but that I've had to incorporate it a bit more into my game at the 20/40 level.
This is not a good way to think about it.

At higher levels, this line may be fine but not because opponents think more. It's because they have wider preflop and flop 3-betting ranges.

Delaying a raise to the turn has value if you have a weak check-raise-call range to protect, or his bet-3bet range is wide enough to get a lot of value from.

The person auto-mashing the raise button because omgomgoverpair isn't thinking any more than the person automashing the call button with JJ when you cap pre cap flop bet bet because omgomgoverpair.
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Old 12-07-2016, 04:59 PM   #8
NittyOldMan1
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob148 View Post
"Now I just wondering how he checked turn with JJ...what is he putting me on?"

A bigger overpair.

I'd 4 bet the flop.
i know! i didnt even cap preflop and he still put me on aces or kings! i guess is should have capped preflop
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Old 12-07-2016, 05:26 PM   #9
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

I'd get rid of the concept of deception and replace it with ideas about balance. You're in a full ring game and you open UTG, you have a tight range and rep nothing. Flop comes where you can't have just hit a pair, right?
Quote:
899 two diamonds
You don't open any 8 UTG, unless you have another 8 to go with it. You don't open A9s. You have a full house, quads, or a diamond draw (if you c/r the s). If you don't c/r your draws, your flop line says KK+? How does he know you have A's? Because that's about the median hand your play says you have. At some point, not capping the flop could be the same as capping, as you've already given up the information.
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Now I just wondering how he checked turn with JJ...what is he putting me on?
The fact that he free card 3 bet you on the flop is kind of a gift. The 9 is a blank. Actually, it means that you can't have 99 and he magically pulled ahead of 88. I wouldn't be focused on the result, but rather, you should look at your range vs. his on the action.
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i know! i didnt even cap preflop and he still put me on aces or kings! i guess is should have capped preflop
You're playing 2/4 online. Not sure how soft the game is. In retrospect vs. JJ, sure. How many total hands are in your UTG opening range. Now you're capping some OOP and not others. It could be that with the BB cold calling you should just cap for value and ignore balance. How good/bad are the villains?

I see two problems with the hand. 1) "I have ACES" but don't mention if you have a BDFD. 2) You have zero reads, but you're sure that you lost money. Maybe you made the max vs JJ? It isn't really important, because you should be looking at
Quote:
List out all the hands you play the way you did. What other hands do you raise/call preflop, then check/raise/call on the flop, then check on the turn?
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Old 12-07-2016, 06:16 PM   #10
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

I think not capping flop is ok but I would sill go ahead and cap if I have AA with no bdfd but maybee just call if I have the Ad.

If he checks back turn just cr River. He's not gonna check back TT or even 88 here twice. Only hand we lose value against is if he soazzes on flop wkth AQ or sowmthinf stupid and if jes one of those Gus we have to just know that or take a note and go ahead and cal flop if he's on a free card wkth AK
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:43 AM   #11
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

When you semi-bluff and get there.
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Old 02-05-2017, 09:55 AM   #12
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Read Bob Ciaffone's Middle Limit Hold'em. There's a very good chapter on deception. Try to get good value for your deceptive plays, and don't overdo it.
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Old 02-05-2017, 11:28 AM   #13
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
Just wondering, because it seems like deception has just been costing me bets lately...
Essentially your opponent used deception to try to save himself a half-bet putting you on a higher pair or AK. At lower limits, play your strong hands strong, and don't worry about deception. At middle limits, you may need to raise with suited connected trash every once in a while so they don't get wise as to how narrow your opening range is. Play your aces strong, but like 1/20 times or something, have a suited connector. You can pick from a basket of suited connectors, and do some math to mix-it-up. Fold your shorts in early. 77 is like borderline in nine-handed game with tougher opponents.
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Old 02-05-2017, 01:13 PM   #14
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

To answer the thread title:

heads up limit holdem online:

I raise button with 85o, big blind calls.

flop 679 with a flushdraw.

checks through.

turn 9o

he bets, I raise, he 3 bets, I 4 bet, he calls.

river idk

he checks, I bet, he calls. I show, he shows J9o.

did deception allow me to win extra bets? Not sure because he very well may have spewed on the flop.
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Old 02-05-2017, 02:33 PM   #15
jdr0317
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

I can't think of a single opponent that I'd check 85 on 976 against after raising pre.
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Old 02-05-2017, 02:53 PM   #16
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

The fact that you have 85o is the deception.
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Old 02-05-2017, 06:23 PM   #17
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

You raise in early position, BB defends. You cbet 100%. That is 'deception' in that you are playing your whole range instead of betting a polarized range.
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Old 02-06-2017, 06:35 PM   #18
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Checking is like a NL play or something.
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Old 02-10-2017, 04:36 PM   #19
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
The fact that you have 85o is the deception.


Standard open from BTN in HU match.
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Old 02-11-2017, 09:52 PM   #20
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

You have near the bottom of most any range and flopped GIN. OK, time to get paid.

I have a suspicion that some people put in fewer bets with 85o than they do with A9o or 88. This is the "deception" thing. Playing backwards? Something.
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Old 02-11-2017, 10:48 PM   #21
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Vtowning AK high
"Omg I thought you had better than that"
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Old 02-12-2017, 03:19 PM   #22
Bob148
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL View Post
You have near the bottom of most any range and flopped GIN. OK, time to get paid.

I have a suspicion that some people put in fewer bets with 85o than they do with A9o or 88. This is the "deception" thing. Playing backwards? Something.
I would bet good hands 100% vs bad players, but vs this guy a few things were going through my head:

He seems ok at poker.

He already knows that my checkback range on the flop is really junky.

This flop hits the big blind caller very well, which ties into the philosophy of slowplaying more as your opponent's range gets stronger.

I have never ever slowplayed a big hand vs this opponent.

At game speed this all added up to winning more by slowplaying. I'm not saying it was the best play, but those were my thoughts.
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Old 02-13-2017, 02:07 AM   #23
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
Just wondering, because it seems like deception has just been costing me bets lately...
Small suggestion nitty.
Read this book:
Theory of poker.

So factors you would need to use deception.
Not multi way ( yours was)
Not a big pot ( your was multi way AND 3bet pf).
You have a hand that cannot be outdrawn ( you are far from having 4 of a kind).
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Old 02-14-2017, 03:41 PM   #24
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Re: When's the last time deception made you more money in a hand?

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Originally Posted by NittyOldMan1 View Post
i know! i didnt even cap preflop and he still put me on aces or kings! i guess is should have capped preflop
You are being results oriented. If the flop was 7 high he might never have quit shoveling bets in on the flop. But if you 4b pre he's much more likely to limit his action, given you announced preflop that you probably had him beat.
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