I agree! I think that would be good for Jon and rodeo. Phunk should stop by later for some sloppy seconds.

maybe you can find something useful in this thread i started a long time ago.

http://archives1.twoplustwo.com/show...Number=9685385

there are no trolls in this forum just big egos.

Ill tell you what I tried to do when I started playing (I'm sure there are better ways and lots of my math/assumptions were liekly wrong and time consuming). I just took old fashion white board and tried to do decion trees (sometimes with friends, sometimes alone) on various spots.... What's our equity when we flop a pair, a gutter, nothing, now does each spot most likely play out. Some assumptions were crude and prob wrong but they gave me what u thought was a decent framework to work with.

Then when I felt I had decent grasp I put 1k online with the goal of playing a million hands. After a big enough sample you can get a decent idea kf what works and hat doesn't as well as your Winrate for various hands given various conditions. How much do I win with A-10, A-J and A-q after I raise with 2 limpers for example..... Obviously we don't have data on how much we win when limping but we have data for All other players when they limp (they'll play worse post howver).

Then we can also look at various situations? How much do we win on average with AJo raising 2 limpers when we flop an ace, flop a jack, and miss. Then how much do we lose when we brick flop. Take those winrates and apply it to how often we flop a pair, gutter, or nothing and see if our ogrional calculations/estimations were accurate.

I'm sure there are lots of programs/sims that can do most of this for you now but i want smart enouh then do know how to do those. I also found the problem solving to be a very valuable tool in learning how to think about limit holdem correctly

Lastly, I just tried to copy how good players played. When I started moving up I played with lots of players that were better than me, guys like tpiranna and tryptamean for example. When I saw them do something different than me I would try and figure out why. I'm sure there's lot of stuff they did I never fully grasped but generally stuff would make sense when I thought about it and I would try to implement it into my own game.

I don't think I ever saw good players overlimp AJ in this spot, so that's another reason I knew/assumed it was corrext to do so. If limping was corrext, the really good players woukd do it (obviously they play in tougher games so it's gonna be closer).

Thanks John, that was very useful. I really liked this part:

>Then we can also look at various situations? How much do we win on average with AJo >raising 2 limpers when we flop an ace, flop a jack, and miss. Then how much do we >lose when we brick flop. Take those winrates and apply it to how often we flop a pair, >gutter, or nothing and see if our ogrional calculations/estimations were accurate.

Unfortunately I don't have a million hand database, but I do play around with CardrunnersEV a bit. It's been useful but I run into issues where for example I have to figure out what %age of our equity do we realize on the river after taking a certain line on the turn, and it's hard to tell if my estimates are even close to accurate.

Thanks again for sharing the results of all that hard work with us.

I was prob drunk 80% of time I was doing thst stuff so lots of my assumptions and approaches were likely bad/wrong.

Fun drunken aside. Me and friend were doing some problems and drinkig heavily and I wanted to play heads up for fun. Kept sitting people and they would either sit out or button me. I sit at OTR table and he just says "really" I respond with somehing and he just says "really"

Lol I actually remember that.

Awesome old school thread. I agree with Clarkmeister. I understand the impulse to limp. No one likes to put extra money into a pot they are probably not going to win, especially when he has a hand he considers weak. It's easier in a lot of ways to raise with T9s here because it plays better multiway or whatever reason. Flopping tptk or tpgk (fairly common "good" flop for this hand) requires more judgement and skillful postflop play than flopping a straight or flush draw.

Despite that, this is a very easy raise for value. Not only does it have an equity edge, but it also plays better with the initiative, especially against poor playing opponents.