Villain is a very good HUHU player. We don't have a lot of history, but I've already shown down K hi or less after calling a river bet for the win against him three times, so he knows I'm not a nit box vs aggression. He is very aggressive; bluffs a lot, goes for thin value, and can be a bit tough to put on a hand range.

He opens BTN, I defend KT of black.

Flop (2 BB): KQTscc or something (top and bottom w/ BD K hi FD)

I check, he bets, I raise, he 3!, I call w/ intent to raise safe turns

Turn (5 BB): brick of red (like 6d or something)

I check and he checks back

River (5 BB): Ah

I bet, he raises, I puke and fold.

Is b/c or x/c a better river line? I feel x/c is leaving value on the table, but putting two bets in on this river is obscene.

i would 4bet flop and lead most turns.

your river reasoning isn't logical - obviously it's a bad river for you and you say you don't really want to put two bets in. but it's a big pot and you still beat some things. so, find a line that involves getting to showdown for not two bets. or if he's actually capable of bluffraising, which you seem to hint at, then don't bet/fold on an obvious scare card.

Agree with BBB, river seems like an easy c/c

So we do think river b/f is bad? While I do agree that he could have air OTR, I thought that given our short history, he'd be more weighted towards just giving up with it (and not bothering to bluff if checked to).

yes i think any line not getting to showdown with a reasonable holding in a big pot in a heads up wide range situation vs an aggressive player is bad

unless he shows you his cards and there's really good lighting

This is probably correct. I just thought he had shifted his river play to thin value and was more likely to show up here with a hand like AK (and obv KJ) v missed clubs.

Maybe he thought you thought that and it's just turtles all the way down. Babar shelling out serious wisdom here. I would like to know a few other hands he 4 bets this flop with tho. Specifically non value 4 bets. I also 4 bet this flop but feel like good players know I pretty much just have value when I do so. Semi bluff 4 betting this flop seems difficult because you so often flop a combo, oesd, or flush draw and will be 4 betting too much. Good post.

Well he b/3! the flop and checked the turn. Possibly an adjustment w/ a draw because I tend to defer a lot of my stronger hands here (though I'd probably just pump w/ a set in the hope that I can b/3! the turn).

Maybe continuing to barrel w/ higher flushes (like Jx) and trying to spike w/ a hand like 65 makes sense, so we aren't just mindlessly barreling all of our draws? And what would be a good pure 4-bet bluff candidate OTF? Maybe 9 8?

I folded Q5 when I played villain HUHU on a KsQs10s X Jx run out on the river and he showed me a bluff, and you know he's capable of bluffing, regardless of whether you have shown the ability to call down light or not.

I think there are some value hands you could bet/fold, but I think I like dividing my range into mostly x/c and b/c against this particular player in these situations, even if it allows him to sometimes play perfectly when we check river. I think K10 is actually strong enough there that you actually should b/c and not x/c, partly because he will be turning weak made hands at the top of his folding range into bluff raises way more than most.

As for a 4 bet bluff on the flop? It's hard to even comprehend how small this distribution makes up as part of our range. Of course its always nice to know, but that spot doesn't come along often enough to force you to go thru the maze and come up with a balanced 4 bet bluffing strategy I think.

I agree it should be pretty small but I do think its important to have. I'm thinking maybe just the smallest flush draws???

The thing with 4 bet bluffing is that you probably have 0% immediate fold equity on the flop, which makes your bluff more expensive as you're now risking 1.5 big bets on the turn to win 5.5. Not counting river fold equity, this means we need 21.4% of the pot to make the bluff worth it.

I think we need JX to run a bluff after he 3 bets the flop.

Also, he may be baiting you to try to develop a turn donking range. Hmm. I wouldn't do it.

If you don't 3 bet preflop with monsters, then I think he's more likely to just call your flop check raise hoping to raise the turn with his monsters, which argues for 4 betting the flop and going from there.

If you do 3 bet preflop sometimes, then I think he's more likely to go for the value on the flop, which makes the flop 4 bet a little thinner.

Though he probably knows all of this and was just plain messin with you at what he felt was a neutral ev decision.

My natural, full ring instinct is to never three bet the BB HU. I think this nerds to change, so I'm working on my game w/ neopokerbot to try and develop a BB 3! Range that makes sense.

Also trying to develop a check back range on flops. Good idea?

those are two big concepts not related to this thread

i tend not to 3bet the BB hu in ring games. i tend to 3bet when playing huhu but a non3betting strategy has merit too.

checking back flops, hu or mw, is a doable concept in ring games too.

Yeah yeah. Just me being bored at the table and thinking out loud after bob's post. .

Though clearly if someone can do things like b/3! for a freebie, it's worth thinking that my current default strategy could use a tweak.

A couple years ago, the topic of "to 3 bet or not from the big blind" was debated at length in the micros. I still believe that by not 3 betting preflop, you're sometimes putting a cap on your possible win and therefore 3 betting should be the default. With a read that someone cbets too much, I sometimes just call from the blind with strong hands in an attempt to exploit the flop cbet. This is at the expense of my 3 bet range ev unless I do it at a random frequency, which I could never accomplish.

Once I decide to call with strong hands sometimes, it becomes a psychological subgame where I'm trying to figure out how to best make the pot bigger with my monsters given the history with this opponent.*

In deciding which hands to 3 bet, I still use this method:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/35...blind-1209262/

Though now I think that sometimes fold equity can be so high as to make 3 betting hands without an equity advantage correct. My favorite hands for this are T9s, 98s, T8s, 87s, 97s in that order. I don't use this play as a default, but instead it's a rarity that requires history.

*Heisenberg talked about this concept in his articles, which I recommend:

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/22...rchive-169063/

I'd give cliffs but couldn't realistically do it any justice.