Basically what Captain Ron and Leader said.

I would only add that I've been playing a lot of 4-8 lately in the Vegas area. I only play that game when family or friends want me to play with them. And now I'm playing a lot with my gf because she likes it and I'm teaching her how to play the game. I've logged almost 200 hrs since July.

My take is SSHE definitely still applies to 4-8.

Where I'm at, the below applies during Monday through Thursdays, day or night:

But it is often the case on Friday nights and Saturdays where you get 6 people consistently seeing the flop, in relatively passive games, where you can open up your limping range in EP a little bit.

Bottom line: if you understand everything in SSHE you can still beat 4-8 for around $5/hr (my guesstimate) which is still a pretty awesome outcome for a pretty relaxing low stress game (imo) within an institution that is literally designed to crush dreams and ruin people's lives.

SSHE is very relevant in the 10/20 games that I play. You don't need to be in a game with 6 or more players seeing the flop for the book to be useful. A lot of the 10/20 players are calling stations and they don't even seem better to me than the 4/8 players. I'm amazed at how many live players will play too many hands and go too far with them, and that's the type of game the book really shines in, whether it's 5 or more to the flop, or even 3 or more to the flop.

Lee Jones can be useful if you're a beginner, or if you're someone who has never studied a poker book before. Once you've grasped the concepts in SSHE then I don't think it will help much at all.

Also, Jones came out with a 3rd version in 2005 and changed some of his advice. Maybe I would have a different opinion if I read it now, but I thought his advice was really nitty. From what I heard, Jones recommended that players play tighter before the flop in the 3rd version (compared to the 2nd version) of his book. He also had Barry Tanenbaum help him out a lot with that book.

personally I would chuck the 2nd ed of jones book and would only keep the 3rd edition for nostalgia or to lend to someone w/o any limit hold em experience.

you should also observe what reversals mean.

• with certain players it means I just improved

• with others it means I have the nuts

• others still it means I D'oh played a strong hand and now a much better hand is probable (or a scare card came)

• good players it can mean anything from I want to rep that card to I think that card gave you enough to pay me off if I bet but not enough to bet yourself (negligible showdown value or check raise fear)

Define reversals please?

Stupid question:

Suppose we have 78s on the button after 4 limpers, we raise (almost always the correct play), both blinds call, UTG 3-bets, everybody calls, you suppress your natural urge to stand up and dance because you're at such an awesome table, you 4-bet (I assume that's the right play there if for no other reason than shania), everyone calls, and you flop the ass end of a straight flush draw.

Do you still jam that flop as if you had the stone cold nuts?

I ask because if we're up against AA, KK and 3 flopped sets we have about a 50% chance of octupling up, but if we're up against JQ, KQ and one or more higher flush draws there are a LOT of cards we don't want to see.

Hope the question made sense.

I am confused on the raising/reraising preflop with suited connectors (or a small pocket pair). Wouldn't we want to sneak in cheaply here and hope to connect?

I would jam on the straight flush draw though at that point. Almost nobody is folding here and there are so many outs to make your hand.

I am a noob and just guessing of course. I have gone a few times to play 4/8 in the past few months after a very long hiatus from poker. On all of these recent trips, I had a super loose table with people cold calling raises with any ace, offsuit connectors, any two suited.

Unfortunately, I was one of those calling stations and stayed in with any hope of making my hand no matter how slim or the size of the pot. This is what made me want to read SSHE again. I read it before but didn't play for so long after I read it I forgot everything.

Assuming I might try to read the other book suggested (not sure it is necessary with the tables I have sat at) would it be wise to reread SSHE first, go play and try to utilize what I learned? Or would it be better to read the next one as well before going again?

Also, does anyone highly recommend the King Yao book? The math was so far over my head I couldn't get through it.

Thanks again

Can you recognize the difference between a tight aggressive player and a loose aggressive player? If not, then you should continue to master SSHE. If yes, then WITHG could save you some money, or maybe even help you win some. I think that just the preflop section of WITHG is worth the investment. It's nothing you couldn't figure out with pokerstove given enough time, but it's still a good shortcut. The important thing that you'll come away with for playing against lags and tags is: 3 bet or fold first in against a raise; 3 bet hands that stand a good chance against the opener; showdown a lot.

WITHG may not apply to a single hand that you'll ever play at 4/8, but just one 8 big bet pot against a lag could pay for it. Heads up pots happen; understanding what your opponents are doing is important. I think a pretty good heuristic is to consider anyone who plays the WITHG preflop chart should be considered a tag; anyone tighter is tight passive preflop, while anyone looser is lag preflop.

I can recognize the difference. Question though on your recommendation for 3 betting. If a lag/tag raises and I am first in of course I understand the 3 bet with a premium hand. What if though, given the history of the table you expect at least 5/6 people in (including blinds) if you don't 3 bet?

I am asking more for situations where you have a small pair or suited connector, hands that could lead to a huge pot if you hit. Is folding preflop a money saver in the long run because you don't hit often enough?

Also, if I recognize a hyper aggressive player I try to sit to the immediate left of him so I know what he will do before I act. Should I not do this so I can see how many others may come in before it gets to me?

Amber: I'm not an expert either but I'll throw this out just to see if the experts think it's good advice (I'm going to digress from your specific questions for a minute and then return to answer one of them):

When playing a small pair or a suited connector, think about it mathematically in terms of what kinds of conditions you need to make it profitable. Obviously, you need to make sure that when you *do* hit your hand and it holds up you make enough to cover for the times you call along and then *don't* make it.

The case of a small pocket pair is the easiest to quantify. You'll flop a set one time in 8 and your set will hold up 5 times out of 6 (those are just guesses but I think you'll see my point).

So of the 7 times you miss your set and have to fold, let's say that 3 times it costs you 2 bets to see the flop and 4 times it costs you 1. So that's 10 small bets or 5 big bets per 7 hands.

One time out of 6 that you hit your set you're probably going to put in 2 or 3 bets on the flop, let's say 2 on the turn and 1 on the river (just throwing these numbers out for discussion). So one time out of 6 that you hit your set you'll lose another 5 or 6 BB.

So out of 48 hands, you'll miss the flop 42 times costing you a total of about 30 big bets and you'll get sucked out on once costing you (let's say) 6BB, for a total of 36 big bets.

So the 5 times out of 48 that you hit your set and hit holds up, you need to make (hopefully) SIGNIFICANTLY more than 36 big bets, or at least 7.25 big bets per hand. Are the villains CONSISTENLY betting and raising after the flop enough that you think you can collect this much? I think you can quickly see that if you're seeing very few multiway pots it's nearly impossible to consistently collect 7 big bets when you flop a set and it holds up.


With regard to suited connectors (one of the questions you actually asked), first of all if you do similar math you'll quickly realize that you need similar conditions to ensure profitability. Second, there are two reasons to RAISE a suited connector in late position after several limpers: 1) If you only raise in LP with big cards and big pairs you're giving away too much information about your hand, and 2) the bigger the pot is on the flop the more likely all of the villains will stay in on the flop and perhaps even the turn, raising the probability that you will scoop in a huge pot when your hand hits, and if the villains happen to be passive, could get you cheap or even free card on the flop or even the turn to try to HIT your hand.


With regard to what Bob said about 3-betting loose raisers, what I'd suggest you do is PokerStove, for example, a 30% range (if you think a specific villain is literally raising 1 in 3 times in a certain situation) and figure out which hands have at least, for example, 60% equity against that range. Repeat it for, say, a 25% raiser or a 20% raiser. If you think you can be way ahead of a villain's entire range and get him heads up after the flop (which 3-betting pre often does), then a 3-bet is a good thing. DUCY? I can't help you heads up post-flop though - that's a huge hole in my game. Bob148 usually says "make a pair and don't fold" but I'm sure there's more to it than that.



Hope that helps - if you get better advice from an expert feel free to disregard mine.

Yes, I see your point. Hopefully there will be feedback on your reply from others as well.

I am concerned that I may never be able to really understand some of these concepts because of the mathematical side of it. Of course I can do basic division or multiplication at the table, but some of this seems very complicated. I wonder if someone who isn't that mathematically inclined can ever do well at this game?

I could go either way on this one. Having him to your left increases the chances of big pot check raises against a huge field, but think about what happens when you don't have a hand that can check raise the huge field, which is the vast majority of hands. You're going to be out of position against an aggressive player who just might have a lot of experience to go along with his preflop mistakes.

If you're in position against a maniac it becomes a lot easier to play, but there is the disadvantage of the other players not respecting your 3 bets preflop. 5 ways with A8o for three bets isn't fun, but heads up for 3 bets preflop with A2o is fun. Know the table dynamics before you expand your isolation range. If isolating isn't working, then it becomes clear that you're getting paid on your big hands and should tighten up a bit preflop. If isolating is working, then you can start to go out on some limbs, but this is not the norm at small stakes.

I think that if you put some time in with stove or equilab, then just the exercise of plugging in the ranges and thinking about the game will help you more than a lot of books could.

I don't think that it takes a lot of math to beat 4/8. Just having the general idea of which draws need which odds to call, and what the price on the river means will be a good start.

Q1: you're getting 19:1 on a river call. How often do you need the best hand to make calling correct?

Q2: how many outs do you need to call getting 9:1 on the flop?

I think there is a difference between fun 0EV spew and the raise being clearly best. His secondary argument of disguise depends on the other players being good hand readers. If you're confused what to do after flopping as GSSFD, just call PF. You're killing your own implied odds, they'll call anyway, and no one at a 4/8 table can read your hand.

Eagerly putting in 4 bets preflop is nuts. You'd better be a genius post flop, because now that you made the pot huge, mistakes are expensive. Without a read that people give up easy inthis game, I'm not happy putting in 4 bets 8 high is a pot that is always seeing showdown.

4betting also sucks because it throws away one of the biggest assets we have: near-nut relative position. I love raising OTB here, but I'd much rather see a flop and then figure out how to proceed given the board texture.

3 things:

1. I'm confused on the pros and cons of raising 78s after 4 limpers. It seems like the pros are:
- shania
- if the majority of the villains in the hand are the type that will stay in the hand if the pot is big, bloating the pot does just that
and the cons:
- you're building a pot that's destined for showdown with 8 high
- you're lowering your implied odds
- the bigger the pot is the more expensive mistakes are, so if you're going to do this play, make sure you know what you're going to do postflop

Did I miss any? Are these true?

2. Why exactly does bloating the pot pre lower your implied odds? If you're at the type of table where villains are more likely to stay in a hand if the pot is big aren't you INCREASING your implied odds because you'll win more AFTER the flop if you bloat it pre than if you didn't?

3. A big part of the original question was, if you play a hand like 65s, 76s or 87s and flop a flush or even a flush draw, how "worried" should you be about being up against a higher flush (a problem you have to a far lesser extent if you flop an OESD, or if you have 98s, T9s or JTs)?

In other words, if you have, for example, the NUT flush draw on a non-paired board, you *know* you have around 33% equity, so if it's 5 ways, you jam it.

If I have 7h8h on the button and the flop comes Kh9h4c, I don't have the luxury of knowing I'm drawing to the nuts and am therefore risking the possibility that I'm jamming somone else's pot. Is that a legitimate concern?

I think you can be a very successfull poker player without ever capping 8 high preflop. I also have no idea what shania means.

Did somebody say that 5+players/flop for multiple bets is rare these days in small stakes games? Not at CAZ, I can tell you that much.

I'm never ever capping the 78 from a limp reraise(although the limp 3! in my game usually means a j/10 type hand anyway) You've built a pot and now have the button, the best thing that could happen is someone up front bets and you get to shove money in with people trapped or get out without having to put another bet in. No need to rep anything.

Shania? Shania twain?

http://poker.wikia.com/wiki/SHANIA

cliff's - shania basically means range balancing for deception.

So you're saying you'd RAISE 78s after several limpers on the button, but if it was reraised you wouldn't cap?

And the justification is that when it's limped around to you you want to build a pot, but when someone 3-bets, the pot is already big and now the limp-reraiser has given you the additional benefit of near-nut relative position which is worth more than further bloating the pot?

Would you happily shove all in preflop? You're playing a hand that is speculative, so you want to maximize your return post flop relative to your initial investment (ROI - Return on investment). Let's say you even have a PF equity edge, it is going to be small. Flop an OESFD or some other combo draw, and you're pushing a big edge post flop multi way. When would you prefer to jam? How about flops where you miss? Would you have preferred not to have put in a ton of money?

You're focused on this cool concept of tying people to the pot. Are people folding when you don't want them to in you SS games? I doubt it. You're just killing the return on a speculative hand by overspending preflop.

an oop player who has been check calling now takes the lead by betting rather than check raising. usually done on a round other than the river. Often done to thwart a free card play. to semi bluff, to create balance enabling the OOP to gain value or bluff later in the hand, or to "freeze" the action.

To be honest, i'm not 100% raising with the 78 suited in this spot(although imo it's not bad or wrong) it would depend on game conditions. If people are likely to fold/respect the raise i'm more apt to do so. if we're showdown bound I'd prefer to save the raise to the flop.

Once it's 3! i'm loving it, I've reestablished the button, in a much bigger pot. If it's a small game, the limp reraiser has put himself on aa/kk, and if it's a bigger game the player likely has put themselves on a similar hand as my own. Now I can raise/fold/peel with a lot more information.