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Live 6/12, game converted from 4/8. Villain has been playing 4/8 with us before we switched over, and was contemplating getting on the list for 20/40. I've seen him playing the nightly NL tourneys in the past. Other relevant info includes villain flatting my 3b with QQ preflop a few hands earlier.

I open TT in MP, SB calls and villain calls from BB.

Flop: ATJr

Checked to me, I bet, villain calls

Turn: (ATJ) J

Villain donks, I just call. Plan is to raise river.

River: (ATJJ) 4x

Villain bets, I raise, villain rereaises. Easy reraise or just call? No cap heads up

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01-22-2017 , 02:29 PM

leo doc

Most interesting man on 2p2

Join Date: Jun 2007 Posts: 12,132

I'd 4-bet/call and hope your boat hasn't become a canoe.

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01-22-2017 , 02:41 PM

Crispix

centurion

Join Date: Jun 2015 Posts: 178

Raise turn. As played, i don't know what I'd do, cause I'll always raise turn.

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01-22-2017 , 02:44 PM

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by leo doc

I'd 4-bet/call and hope your boat hasn't become a canoe.

Doc are you in Tunica this weekend? There was a Doc playing 20-40, thought it might've been you.

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01-22-2017 , 03:41 PM

offTopic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19,511

I'm probably projecting my passive opponents too much here but I'm never 4-betting this.

I would also raise turn...what happens when the river is an A or J?

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01-22-2017 , 09:41 PM

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by offTopic

I'm probably projecting my passive opponents too much here but I'm never 4-betting this.

I would also raise turn...what happens when the river is an A or J?

Raising turn isn't folding a hand that improves on an A or a J, obviously raising for value is an option. This player isn't passive.

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01-23-2017 , 04:44 PM

offTopic

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Dec 2002 Posts: 19,511

Understood, but I'm of the mind that you can't raise an A or J river, so I'd raise/call turn and call non-T river, or bet/call non-T river if villain just called on turn.

This mostly assumes that opponents don't spaz out with KQ or naked J hands

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01-23-2017 , 05:54 PM

mongidig

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,682

I just call the 3 bet. You have seen this player flat so he could have AA or JJ or AJ. Your risking a likely two bets when behind but will win only one more bet. A 3 bet on the river at 6-12 is serious business.

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01-23-2017 , 06:09 PM

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Raise turn. There's really no reason to wait for the river - you don't have a weak draw you need to protect and few scare cards that would drastically lower your equity. Most of the time the river bricks out and when you raise Villain immediately realizes you had it on the turn and calls AK/AQ.

As played, call the river 3-bet against anyone not on the 20/40 list. 3-bets are srsbsnss and I watched someone with top boat 3b/c because he thought 4b = quads (he was correct).

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01-23-2017 , 06:12 PM

#10

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

Quote:

Originally Posted by mongidig

You have seen this player flat so he could have AA

Probably wrong but the reasoning is definitely wrong.

OP watched V flat call QQ versus a 3-bet, which is not at all the same as flat calling AA versus a 2-bet.

Villain may have AA but the history with QQ is not evidence of that.

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01-23-2017 , 06:17 PM

#11

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

Sounds good. I certainly suffered some FPS on the turn here.

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01-23-2017 , 08:39 PM

#12

mongidig

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Jan 2004 Posts: 5,682

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

Just pointing out possible hands hero is beat by.

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01-23-2017 , 08:59 PM

#13

DougL

Too helpful for this post

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 21,810

Quote:

Other relevant info includes villain flatting my 3b with QQ preflop a few hands earlier.

Quote:

Originally Posted by callipygian

Villain may have AA but the history with QQ is not evidence of that.

Every time I see this thread I think about this -- it could be that the flatting with QQ is super fishy. It could be expert. We lack the context of that hand that would enable us to use it here. If that hand went "folds to villain in BTN+5, he opens, and I 3 bet next in, folds to back around to villain who flats QQ", then I think different things than him cold calling 3 bets OTB.

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01-23-2017 , 09:26 PM

#14

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

I agree it's not super helpful without context. Villain was UTG+2 9 handed. Villain raises, I 3b from the HJ or CO, folds to him and he flats. I just try to include some sort of history if I have it.

He also IWTSTH-ed me earlier in the 6/12 session, claiming he wanted to "confirm a tell on me"

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01-24-2017 , 01:08 AM

#15

DougL

Too helpful for this post

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 21,810

You realize that not 4 betting HU OOP means he's potentially a good player? It is a narrow range spot and he's out of position. This in no way indicates he's passive or a fish.

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01-24-2017 , 01:27 AM

#16

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougL

You realize that not 4 betting HU OOP means he's potentially a good player? It is a narrow range spot and he's out of position. This in no way indicates he's passive or a fish.

Yes for sure. I said earlier he was not passive. I did not take him to be a fish by any means, he is probably one of the better opponents I've played against at 4/8

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01-24-2017 , 07:48 AM

#17

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

I call against a typical opponent who does not likely have 44.

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01-24-2017 , 01:05 PM

#18

callipygian

slowrolled by tpiranha!

Join Date: Mar 2009 Posts: 19,880

44 is unlikely to have called the flop or bet the turn.

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01-26-2017 , 04:55 PM

#19

asmitty

Pooh-Bah

Join Date: Dec 2006 Posts: 4,447

(1) You have to raise the turn. Have to.

(2) I would just call the 3bet. But if you had raised the turn and villain 3bet, I probably would have 4bet at game speed. Maybe this means I have not thought this spot through because those two lines don't seem consistent.

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01-26-2017 , 07:54 PM

#20

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Just call the turn. His previous flatting makes his range look like AA,JJ,AJ being far more likely than KJ or QJ. And call the river. Your canoe may be good but probably not.

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01-26-2017 , 08:03 PM

#21

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by asmitty

Villains are way more likely to overplay Jx or KQ on the turn versus the river, hence why all statements in 2 can be true.

If we 4 bet the river, we must fold to 5, OP. Are you prepared to fold a boat getting 15:1?

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01-26-2017 , 08:34 PM

#22

suchj0sh

journeyman

Join Date: Mar 2016 Posts: 224

Quote:

Originally Posted by jdr0317

I'm not sure. Maybe.

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01-27-2017 , 03:06 AM

#23

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

You don't necessarily fold 5. Also villian who cold calls QQ is likely too conservative to have KQ. 4 bet is a bad idea. Going 4 and folding 5 may be worse. If he is a bad enough player to have KJ,KQ, the player may be bad enough to go 5 with it.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 01-27-2017 at 03:14 AM.

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01-28-2017 , 01:48 PM

#24

monikrazy

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Sep 2009 Posts: 28,055

4!, hate life if 5 comes back

Villain has to have more kq/kj/qj/j9/j8 than aa/aj/jt/j4 and our hand is so underrepped from turn call that the villain may 3! Liberally

Also donking the turn with the nuts?