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Old 06-04-2010, 05:40 PM   #26
avoidthe9to5
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

=D=D
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:00 PM   #27
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

u gotta raise /call ...no just call ,no raise...tuff 1 ,but i think id just call out{give his set respect} unless i catch heart......no pun intended
if u hadnt emphized his skill so much ,i mighta bumped up once tho
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:00 PM   #28
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Well, if you put him on a range of 2 pair+, then it's a call, I suppose. If he's betting worse, let him continue to do so since we're not getting overlay from the fish anymore. Preserve your ability to pop him on the river if you hit.

I think there's a disconnect between not raising the flop and now raising the turn. I.e. if you think he's strong enough to where you can't raise the flop for value, free card, etc., you can't raise this turn. Relative hand strength and whatnot.
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:08 PM   #29
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Just call. He folds air to a raise and we are charging ourselves to draw against his monster. If he is betting a draw we have it in bad shape so let him keep barreling.
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Old 06-04-2010, 09:21 PM   #30
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Since UTG has been described as this:

Quote:
utg is EXTREMELY loose passive terrible.
I raise. If he is that loose, he is probably coming along for multiple bets on the flop. Once he does that, he is coming along on the turn as well.

I really do think it depends on your read of UTG on how you play the flop.
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Old 06-04-2010, 10:59 PM   #31
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

turn decision and reasoning -

flop - T75
Villain donk bets, UTG calls, hero calls

Turn - T75K
Villain bets, UTG folds, hero calls

Villain is barreling A. things that have us crushed or B. things that we are extremely far ahead of. He will continue to bet the river with all of the above hu with his nonshowdownable hands and made hands. There is no reason to raise the turn here as we get the same amount out of draws calling down and open ourselves up to an EXTREMELY likely 3!.

At this point in the hand, I was actually considering folding the river UI. I do not think this was a good option, as I would be getting laid odds to bluffcatch his unlikely oesd or fd. Just wanted to give insight into how much of a bluffcatcher/draw I felt I actually had.

River - T75KA

Villain checks, hero bets, villain raises, hero 3!, villain folds

My entire range is betting on the river here when he checks. He experts the river and check raises me for max value with his set of 5's in this hand. I 3! and he sighs as he folds his set to my obvious nuts vs his hand.
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:13 PM   #32
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Imagine how good you would have f
elt if you had bluff 3! On the river based on the same logic.

I'm not good enough to fold and would have probably bet called in villains shoes instead of C/R/folding
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:29 PM   #33
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

im sorry but i think villain played this hand terribly.

flop: in a zillion way pot i think that donking the flop is fine but 3 ways donking is just horribly unbalanced especially when you are going to bet your entire range. if his range for donking is entirely huge draws and monsters (which you figured out) then he is going to end up getting in 1 bet way more often than he'll get 2, and UTG is terrible so i expect him to coldcall this flop like a champion a good portion of the time. also if he c/r's his hand looks like something that needs protection and you will 3bet a lot more (and he can cap it).

river: this is just a brutal river to screwplay and then fold. i mean if you're betting your whole range when checked to then that's a big leak and i guess his play is exploitative but a lot of the time you'll just check it back with anything showdownable and only bet the top of your range. also i mean you're going to have a flush a bunch here and while i understand the "extract a ton of value then fold when you're obviously beat" i'd much rather put in 1 or 2 bets with a set than take a line that involves putting in 0 bets, or 3 bets, or 2 bets and not seeing a showdown. also i don't think this is a big factor in a 15/30 game , but against a capable hand reader in a high stakes game (im thinking of the howmany/bugstud/DD/CDC types) you really do open yourself up to a 3bet bluff.

so um sorry villain i guess you're probably a good player and it's not like im a poker genius but i think this hand is pretty badly massacred.
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Old 06-04-2010, 11:58 PM   #34
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Quote:
Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5 View Post
Villain is barreling A. things that have us crushed or B. things that we are extremely far ahead of. He will continue to bet the river with all of the above hu with his nonshowdownable hands and made hands. There is no reason to raise the turn here as we get the same amount out of draws calling down and open ourselves up to an EXTREMELY likely 3!.

At this point in the hand, I was actually considering folding the river UI. I do not think this was a good option, as I would be getting laid odds to bluffcatch his unlikely oesd or fd. Just wanted to give insight into how much of a bluffcatcher/draw I felt I actually had.
The only issue I have is the assumption that villain is going to 3-barrel all of his draws. I think that would be terrible of villain to do so, especially if it's true that your "preflop range is really strong here".

Villain played the river well IMO. I think he played the preflop/flop/turn the standard way. Although, I think he should sometimes c/r the flop as well with both monsters and draws.
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Old 06-05-2010, 12:51 AM   #35
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

like flop and river. turn is close since TP / pair+FD combo on the flop are not necessarily checking that turn 3ways. but calling preserves implied odds and he may c/c river with a pair+FD combo (2 big street bets total which seems like the right amount), so i like calling better. nh.
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Old 06-05-2010, 01:53 AM   #36
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Quote:
Originally Posted by Captain R View Post
The only issue I have is the assumption that villain is going to 3-barrel all of his draws.
I didn't think he would most of the time. This is why I had considered folding the river UI~

Retrospectively, Villain does look strong, but my hand is severely underrepresented on the river after just calling the turn. This is why I leaned towards a call after the house discussed the hand
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Old 06-05-2010, 03:00 AM   #37
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Quote:
Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5 View Post
I didn't think he would most of the time. This is why I had considered folding the river UI~
But it's also a reason to raise the turn if he's going to give up on his draws when he misses.

Seems to me the key here is what % of the time is he betting a monster vs. a draw. Combinatorically there really aren't that many sets he can hold here, assuming he 3-bets TT and especially if he at least sometimes 3-bets 77. I didn't get a good feel on why you think sets are a lot more likely than 2 pair, unless you think he folds T7/75 most of the time. I suppose if he folds T7/75, then he is equally folding 64 and 86.
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Old 06-05-2010, 06:47 AM   #38
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

if you can automatically put the villain on a huge hand here by simply betting the flop he has serious holes in his game.
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Old 06-05-2010, 07:57 AM   #39
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

I think hero and villain played the hand fine given this:

Quote:
Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5 View Post
We have developed 0 history together so far, as this is our first session together.
I'd assume that villain, being a winning pro, wouldn't always play his monsters the same way.
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:22 AM   #40
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

im sorry but CRing this flop with 55 is much better than betting it 3 way
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Old 06-05-2010, 08:56 AM   #41
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Quote:
Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
im sorry but CRing this flop with 55 is much better than betting it 3 way
This..................

And

This.......in case the sarcasm of my last post did not come across properly.

Quote:
Originally Posted by asmitty View Post
im sorry but i think villain played this hand terribly.

flop: in a zillion way pot i think that donking the flop is fine but 3 ways donking is just horribly unbalanced especially when you are going to bet your entire range. if his range for donking is entirely huge draws and monsters (which you figured out) then he is going to end up getting in 1 bet way more often than he'll get 2, and UTG is terrible so i expect him to coldcall this flop like a champion a good portion of the time. also if he c/r's his hand looks like something that needs protection and you will 3bet a lot more (and he can cap it).

river: this is just a brutal river to screwplay and then fold. i mean if you're betting your whole range when checked to then that's a big leak and i guess his play is exploitative but a lot of the time you'll just check it back with anything showdownable and only bet the top of your range. also i mean you're going to have a flush a bunch here and while i understand the "extract a ton of value then fold when you're obviously beat" i'd much rather put in 1 or 2 bets with a set than take a line that involves putting in 0 bets, or 3 bets, or 2 bets and not seeing a showdown. also i don't think this is a big factor in a 15/30 game , but against a capable hand reader in a high stakes game (im thinking of the howmany/bugstud/DD/CDC types) you really do open yourself up to a 3bet bluff.

so um sorry villain i guess you're probably a good player and it's not like im a poker genius but i think this hand is pretty badly massacred.
You on the other hand, played the hand nicely.

gg, nh sir.
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Old 06-05-2010, 10:45 AM   #42
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Quote:
Originally Posted by jesse8888 View Post
for the record I am not the villain and my thoughts on the hand are that it really depends on what BB thinks of you. what range does he think you'll assign him if he donks? if I were donking the big blind here it would only be when I had a monster and only if I thought the two players in the hand were incapable of figuring that out. he should assume you'll put him on a monster, which means he should do this with stuff other than monsters, but it's so bad strategically to do it with stuff other than monsters that I think the only conclusion we can draw is that his range is super strong and he think's you won't think that.
Thanks for laying this out. very much appreciated.
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Old 06-06-2010, 08:13 PM   #43
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

i'd like a flop c/r from villain with the set of 5s. i like the hand as played from hero's pov.
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Old 06-08-2010, 06:14 PM   #44
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Quote:
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i'd like a flop c/r from villain with the set of 5s. i like the hand as played from hero's pov.
BBB just summed up my thoughts as well.

I think the villain gets a whole lot more action with his set if he C/R's rather than donking because it sets up alarm bells for us and the fish is likely so bad that it won't matter if you C/R.

Hero played the hand very well IMO.
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Old 06-09-2010, 08:35 AM   #45
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Quote:
Originally Posted by avoidthe9to5 View Post
River - T75KA

Villain checks, hero bets, villain raises, hero 3!, villain folds

My entire range is betting on the river here when he checks. He experts the river and check raises me for max value with his set of 5's in this hand. I 3! and he sighs as he folds his set to my obvious nuts vs his hand.
He just cost himself a mountain of chips against AK and AT. He committed the cardinal sin of LHE if he had 55. b/c costs him the same as c/r/f and never costs a $300 mistaken fold.

Put me down for the villain being from Chicago. As I think this through, you have a tell and that could make my folding observation incorrect.

Last edited by DougL; 06-09-2010 at 08:37 AM. Reason: I think you have a huge tell.
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Old 03-05-2017, 03:01 PM   #46
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

Just call turn, honest player is betting into a scare card, may be up against two-pair or AhXh. WA/WB. Wow, just read the river, putting him on ~8h6h, and layed down a flush or made a raise w a set. I think he can safely fold, many more flush combos than AK. Small flush is about just as good as a set of 5's here (worthless except against a very optimistic bluff with AK).

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 03-05-2017 at 03:08 PM.
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Old 03-06-2017, 09:56 AM   #47
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Re: Slow Playalong - live 15/30 - interesting hand vs a good player

7 year bump, solid.
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