...Here's another one. I expect to be criticized at many points during this hand, so I'm prepared for the onslaught.

This was in my regular 8/16 game. Villain 1 is a friend/student of mine - I know his game very well. Villain 2 I know very little about. She normally plays 4/8 and I don't have much history with her there and this is the first time I've played 8/16 with her. She is late 20s or early 30s white girl.

Three players limp, V1 raises on the button, V2 calls from the SB, and I defend BB with QTo. Everyone else calls (12 small bets).

Flop is T83 rainbow. It checks to V1 on button, he bets, V2 calls, I just call. I know this is mandatory raise spot, but I know enough about V1's game that most of his c-bet range here has me crushed. He could have QJs, J9s, JTs, T9s, 99, A8s, but those are the only hands he'd c-bet here that I can beat IMO. He will never bet AK, AQ, KQ, KJs, etc. here. Knowing that, should I still be raising? When I know he will be 3-betting most of his flop betting range?

Okay, moving on. They all folded for a single bet anyway (15 small bets) and it's three of us to Q turn. SB checks and I make a rather clear mistake here by donking out (8.5 BB). I'm not sure what possessed me to do this in real time, but in hindsight I have no good explanation for it seeing as how I know V1 is loaded with strong hands he will always be betting again on the turn - as that's the entire reason we didn't check-raise flop.

And this is where things get crazy. V1 raises (10.5 BB). Okay, this isn't the end of the world. We could still easily have the best hand... but... I'm inclined to think this raise means [88, TT, QQ] more than it means [AA, KK] even though there are more combos remaining of the latter range - and of course he could have some other hands... maybe. If he had the overpairs though, I expected him to just flat here which makes my idea to donk the turn even worse...

...and then V2 cold three bets it (13.5 BB)

Do we ever have the best hand here? If we assume we don't have the best hand here, can we continue? The pot is offering us 13.5 / 2 = 6.25 to 1 and we have four outs, at best, to improve. It doesn't look like we are getting the right price. We can probably add V1s call in, but he could still cap it and it's hard to factor in implied odds since we really don't know where we are in the hand, but I guess we will get maybe 3 big bets on the river on average when we improve. But when we don't improve, we are also calling, so our immediate odds are worse than they actually look.

Can we ever fold here?

Can we profitably continue?

Are we EVER good here?

What do you guys think?

What do you mean he's a student of yours?

I'm not a formal poker coach by any means - I'd prefer my opponents don't improve - but we talk extensively about poker, he looks to me for advice on a regular basis, and he is actively trying to improve.

I'd donk the flop, c/r turn as played, and refuse to fold. Button has enough hands you eat and sb has qt enough times too

I'm curious to know what you would have done if you had checked the turn planning to c/r, and "V1" bet and V2 raised. You gonna 3-bet that?

I agree with donking the flop. From your description it sounds like V1 is not the type to c-bet into this many opponents, if he missed and only has overcards.

I also agree that c/r the turn is best when you hit two pair. The 3-bet from V2 smells like QQ or TT. If I were playing really disciplined I would fold to her 3-bet, but in reality I'd probably just squirm, not know what to do, call down, and lose.

I may be results oriented but does a bet go in better on the flop w/ a donk? It sounds like he's cbetting < 50% here and we're not doing so hot against his range.

Flop is close. I probably donk if your assumptions about villain cbetting are correct. It would be useful to know what he will raise your flop donk with and how wide the three people in between you will donk.

I think you should c/r turn given your flop line. As played, I would call turn and then fold A, J, 9 rivers.

Naw. I would just cold call in that spot. I'm really up in the air with what she has. I peg her as tight/passive so I'm assuming a check-raise is at least two pair. I guess she could have Q8s or T8s. But we don't really want to find ourselves putting in four bets here, do we?

Anyone else want to weigh in on this one?

wall of text ahhhhh!!!!!!!

Bet flop, c/r turn. As played call. EZ game.

Seems to discourage interaction.

If the villain's cbetting range is so tight that you can't c/r, it seems correct to donk knowing what you knew at the time (he's not cbetting often). Then you donk the turn, claiming it to be a mistake. Then we make the soul read that the one combo of QQ is going at it with one combo of TT and fold?

If you think turn donking is a mistake, it makes me wonder if your opponents agree -- some part of their actions are due to the fact that you're full of it. Not sure if these guys play well enough to hand read your play and then correctly react.

Lacking soul reads, this seems right

V2 doesn't know me or the other player at all and I would guess her hand reading skills are minimal.

The only read she needs is that good hands don't donk the turn, and then have the willingness to put in multiple $8 bets to punish you for not having a good hand.

This whole hand is a combo counting exercise on the turn. 1 combo QQ. 1 combo TT. 3 combos 88. 3 combos of 33. Both villains claim to have one of those 8 combos in your mind (you seem to think you're behind in two spots). That's vs everything else. You could decide if they need QT to be suited, and count those. If QT is in the mix, count those. T8o? T8s? Q8s could be raised the button or cold called. Would SB cold call Q8o? Would AA be played this way, because there are 6 combos of that.

I doubt she knows what a donk bet is or what it means - and this is 8/16 so it would be multiple $16 bets. She is not an 8/16 player though so I actually expected aggression from her to mean a huge hand - which made me think I had four outs tops and that I did not have the correct price to draw.

I'm not necessarily convinced that v1 has me beat. He certainly knows what a donk bet is and he wouldn't expect it from me, so he's capable/likely to raise the turn with worse than my hand.

My range for her is significantly tighter. I'm not really expecting Q8o or T8o to be in her range. But J9s definitely is.



This was one of the first hands I played with her so my image drastically changed. She was loose and totally spewy. If this hand happened 30 minutes later I wouldn't even be posting it.

If that's your read...

honestly, there are just so few combos that your blockers make calling somewhat attractive. If she either has something she thinks is the nuts or did something screwy, how much nuts can she have? Also, if she made smooth with QQ pre then should could have with AA or KK.

I'd be concerned with results bias here. You make a read on a new player. Maybe you do it too strongly? Maybe you're a long time expert in these games. The limit of your read could be folding top 2 that you under and then over-repped -- once you're there, you can't use a generic read to hero fold?

Yeah I obviously completely misread her range and what kind of player she was. She did a number of things after this that were quite outrageous.

Yah, this is what my read was



From your read it's a combo-crunch like DougL said. Folding is possible here if you really think you have 4 outs tops, which is entirely reasonable. Don't be too results oriented.

I think what it comes down to is folding strong hands in LHE against players you don't have any history with is almost exclusively terrible.