Should I move to 10/20 to avoid no fold em hold em? - Page 2 - Small Stakes Poker Forum

COCOCHANEL · 07-02-2012, 01:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve00007

Yeah there's less river chasing, but I think postflop play is more difficult. You'll face fewer opponents with much stronger hands in general, and they will be more skilled, will have the initiative more often after being the last aggressor preflop, and you're more likely to get outplayed. Also, because they don't chase as much, you can win more pots, but the pots will be smaller. You're also more likely to get pots stolen from you. Players won't give as many free cards, and the pot will be smaller after the flop, so you won't be able to chase your hands as much.

If the game is too nitty, it will also be important to improve parts of your game that don't get tested much at 3/6. You'll play posflop against 1-2 opponents more often instead of 4 or more opponents, and those 1-2 opponents will often be tougher than the 3/6 player. Blind stealing and blind defense becomes more important. Reacting properly to aggression from other players is more difficult, and hand reading becomes more important. Etc.

I don't know how the game is at the Borgata though, and I haven't played much 10/20, but that's mainly because I didn't really like the game when I played in it or watched it. Almost every time I walk by it looks too tight for me. I thought 10/20 was going to be easier than it was. I thought a player could just play tight and straightforward and have a pretty big edge. If I had jumped into the game sooner, I think it would have felt too tough for me.

This is a very good post, IMO. I agree with most everything in it, and, as someone who has played a good bit on the Borg 10/20, I can assure you that it applies to the general character of that game.

I think it's also important to note that, as a general matter, the Borg 10 game plays strangely tight, especially relative to the 3/6 and 20/40 games (the games at the Borg which are typically spread one level lower, and one level higher than the 10 game, respectively). The 10 game regulars are generally rockish and play ABC, TAG poker, which, in my experience, is a style of play that is very well suited for the Borg 10 game.

Compare this to the 20 game (my regular game), where the pots are ENORMOUS relative to the 10 game... In the 20 game, people chase, and a check raise on the flop and/or turn is just as likely to indicate a draw as the nuts. In the 10 game, if a Borg regular c/r's you, you're up against the nuts--or close to it.

So my point to you, OP, is that (assuming bank roll requirements are satisfied) you may want to take a shot because it seems to me that your style of play may be very well suited to the Borg 10/20 game!

A couple of quick things, though:

1. The Borg 10/20 (like the 3/6 and unlike the 20/40) is a jackpot-eligible game, so you will see otherwise TAG players calling too often in early position with pocket pairs, hoping to flop a jackpot-winner. This will, of course, mean that you will also see more sets at showdown than you'd otherwise expect to see. (This requires only very minor adjustments to your play, of course.) Unfortunately, this also means that every pot is raked for the jackpot, but if you're used to the rake in 3/6, I sincerely doubt this will bother you too much.

2. I agree with all of the posts above that suggest to you that before you take shots at higher levels, you really should reconcile your apparent distaste for bad players who suck out... You DO want them at your table, in any game, at any level. It's a pain when they get there, but in order to be an overall winning player, you MUST be able to adjust your own play to all types of game conditions--especially when you're in a game with a lot of poor, loose LHE chasers. Once you can learn to play well against those types of players, you'll make a TON more money in both the short-term and in the long-run. Obv, the swings that come from playing against loose LHE players who chase can become a bit maddening, but I do believe that you will find that your raises and check raises will be respected more at the 10/20 level than in the 3/6.

3. Before sitting in the 10 game, DO read the key texts on the game. Whatever else you may think or feel about him, Slansky's "Hold'em for Advanced Players" is a must--if for no other reason, you really should assume that each and every one of the 10 game regulars has read it and has been influenced heavily by its guidelines for play. I highly suggest also reading Jen Harman's section on LHE in Super System 2... The concepts Harman discusses will also serve you very well in the Borg 10 game.

It is true that you will find the overall quality of play in the Borg 10 game to be substantially higher than what you're up against in the 3/6. But if you stick to your apparently straightforward, TAG style of poker, you should do well in the game once you grow accustomed to it. Why not take a shot?! I mean, the rake in 3/6 is BRUTAL, and I suspect that you will be thrilled to play a game where the players pay time instead of fighting an obscene rake. If you sit in the game and lose a rack right off (which I doubt), and feel like you're way out-classed (which I doubt), just get up and go back to the 3/6. I bet you'll feel proud of yourself for having the balls to take a shot in the game, and even if you decide you aren't ready to move up (which is entirely possible), at least you'll know what you're working towards! And it will feel very nice to sit in the "high limit" room (where the 10-20 game is spread) for a change, rather than in the busy, loud, obnoxious main room at the Borg (and, again, spending even one session in the high-limit area will provide you a goal for the future). Finally, I already know that when you first sit down, you'll be a little terrified at first--that's the just nature of taking a shot. The players will all look and sound a great deal more experienced and savvy than the average 3/6 player. But once you parse out what the 10/20 players are actually doing in each hand--and the fact that they make a ton of poor plays--your confidence will increase dramatically, and you'll realize that the game is beatable, and that one day soon you'll come full circle and start sitting in the 20/40 game which, ironically, plays more like the 3/6 in terms of draws and chasing

Good luck, OP.

jlabruno · 07-02-2012, 02:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by COCOCHANEL

This is a very good post, IMO. I agree with everything in here, and, as someone who has played a good bit on the Borg 10/20, I can assure you that it applies to the general character of that game.

I think it's also important to note that, as a general matter, the Borg 10 game plays strangely tight, especially relative to the 3/6 and 20/40 games (the games at the Borg which are typically spread one level lower, and one level higher than the 10 game, respectively). The 10 game regulars are generally rockish and play ABC, TAG poker, which, in my experience, is a style of play that is very well suited for the Borg 10 game.

Compare this to the 20 game (my regular game), where the pots are ENORMOUS relative to the 10 game... In the 20 game, people chase, and a check raise on the flop and/or turn is just as likely to indicate a draw as the nuts. In the 10 game, if a Borg regular c/r's you, you're up against the nuts--or close to it.

So my point to you, OP, is that (assuming bank roll requirements are satisfied) you may want to take a shot because it seems to me that your style of play may be very well suited to the Borg 10/20 game!

A couple of quick things, though:

1. The Borg 10/20 (like the 3/6 and unlike the 20/40) is a jackpot-eligible game, so you will see otherwise TAG players calling too often in early position with pocket pairs, hoping to flop a jackpot-winner. This will, of course, mean that you will also see more sets at showdown than you'd otherwise expect to see. (This requires only very minor adjustments to your play, of course.) Unfortunately, this also means that every pot is raked for the jackpot, but if you're used to the rake in 3/6, I sincerely doubt this will bother you too much.

2. I agree with all of the posts above that before you take shots at higher levels, you really should reconcile your apparent distaste for bad players who suck out... You DO want them at your table, in any game, at any level. It's a pain when they get there, but in order to be an overall winning player, you MUST be able to adjust your own play to all types of game conditions--especially when you're in a game with a lot of poor, loose LHE chasers. Once you can learn to play well against those types of players, you'll make a TON more money in both the short-term and in the long-run. Obv, the swings that come from playing against loose LHE players who chase can become a bit maddening, but I do believe that you will find that your raises and check raises will be respected more at the 10/20 level than in the 3/6.

3. Before sitting in the 10 game, DO read the key texts on the game. Whatever else you may think or feel about him, Slansky's "Hold'em for Advanced Players" is a must--if for no other reason, you must assume that each and every one of the 10 game regulars has read it and has been influenced heavily by its guidelines for play. I highly suggest also reading Jen Harman's section on LHE in Super System 2... The concepts Harman discusses will also serve you very well in the Borg 10 game.

It is true that you will find the overall quality of play in the Borg 10 game to be substantially higher than what you're up against in the 3/6. But if you stick to your apparently straightforward, TAG style of poker, you should do well in the game once you grow accustomed to it. Why not take a shot?! I mean, the rake in 3/6 is BRUTAL, and I suspect that you will be thrilled to play a game where the players pay time instead of fighting an obscene rake. If you sit in the game and lose a rack right off, and feel like you're way out-classed (which I doubt), just get up and go back to the 3/6. I bet you'll feel proud of yourself for having the balls to take a shot at the game, and even if you decide you aren't ready to move up (which is entirely possible), at least you'll know what you're working towards! And it will feel very nice to sit in the "high limit" room (where the 10-20 game is spread) for a change, rather than in the busy, loud, obnoxious main room at the Borg (and, again, spending even one session in the high-limit area will provide you a goal for the future). Finally, I already know that when you first sit down, you'll be a little terrified at first--that's the just nature of taking a shot. The players will all look and sound a great deal more experienced and savvy than the average 3/6 player. But once you parse out what the 10/20 players are actually doing in each hand--and the fact that they make a ton of poor plays--your confidence will increase dramatically, and you'll realize that the game is beatable, and that one day soon you'll come full circle and start sitting in the 20/40 game which, ironically, plays more like the 3/6 in terms of draws and chasing

Good luck, OP.

Wow awesome post! Very good information. Thanks for that.

Can I ask what would you say is a good amount to sit down with at a 10/20? Or the average most sit down with? I was thinking 25bb so $500? With any decision of a new limit want to be sure I have the right bankroll for such a move.

Thanks again

COCOCHANEL · 07-02-2012, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlabruno

Wow awesome post! Very good information. Thanks for that.

Can I ask what would you say is a good amount to sit down with at a 10/20? Or the average most sit down with? I was thinking 25bb so $500? With any decision of a new limit want to be sure I have the right bankroll for such a move.

Thanks again

No prob!

I sit down with a red rack ($500) and 20 green checks (another $500). But this is because I am waiting for a seat in the 20 game whenever I'm in the 10 game, and I always start my 20 game sessions with a dime. So the truth is, I'm not 100% sure what is "average."

That said, I definitely see--in my mind's eye--players sitting down with a single red rack an awful lot, and $500 is definitely a good buy-in for that game.

But without sounding patronizing, I trust that you understand, OP, that bankroll requirements and an average buy-in are wholly unrelated concepts?! I mean, for a discussion of what kind of roll is appropriate for playing a certain level, do a search on this forum and you'll see a TON of different positions taken by different types of players about how much money you need to have "on the hip" before playing at any particular level.

For one session, I, myself, wouldn't want to go to the Borg to play 10/20 for the evening with less than a dime, and preferably I'd have $1,500 with me to re-buy if the game is good but I'm running bad.

OH! And that's another thing! Do be mindful that the must-move tables for the 10 game may, at times, play a bit differently than the main game. At the must-moves, you will have a wider range of quality of player: you will have totally sucky players who will go busto so fast they won't even make it to the main game; you will have players who are generally much stronger than the average player on the main game (players who are waiting for seats in the 20/40 and even 40/80 games but who won't play 10/20 long enough to make it to the main game, since they'll eventually get seated in the game they're waiting for); and everything in between. But generally, I'd say that my previous characterizations of the Borg 10 game will apply to most any table you're at.

If you decide to take a shot, PM me and let me know? Now I'm curious to see whether you enjoy the 10 game or not, and whether you end up winner on it. And don't be hard on yourself if you don't put up a winning session your first time out, either! It can take time to adjust to a new level!!

Again, GOOD LUCK!

jlabruno · 07-02-2012, 03:08 PM

Gotcha I will keep ya posted. Really it might come down to bankroll for me more then anything.

I go to AC about 2 sometimes 3 days per week and planned on using 3/6 to build my bankroll. I was thinking of moving to 10/20 once I had about 10k bankroll. Right now I got about 6k I could dedicate to my bankroll without putting any strain on my real life finances. Not sure if that is enough to roll the dice at 10/20 right now. Then again it would not hurt me to go sit in on a game with $500 just to see how it plays and how I handle myself. Even if I had a bad session and lost all of it I would not have cost myself my bankroll and could still go back to 3/6 no problem.

COCOCHANEL · 07-02-2012, 03:27 PM

The 2 + 2'ers will tell you that you don't have enough $ to play 10/20 yet--that you won't be able to absorb the swings. But I agree with you: play one session and see how it goes, knowing that you really don't have the roll to be able to play the game full-time just yet. Once you've played higher one time, it will give you that incentive you need to keep grinding the 3/6 game until you're able to move up. I wouldn't advise this if you were playing the rent money, but since you're otherwise financially sound, WTF, right?! Do it! Do it!! Do it!!! It'll be good experience, even if you lose.

I may not be back up to the Borg until August

But do let me know how it goes or if I can be helpful?

daveopie · 07-02-2012, 03:33 PM

If you dominate 3/6, then take some of the profits from there and take a shot at 10/20. Hopefully, it will be fun. If you get crushed, then drop back down. If you win, then stay at that limit in future trips. Or, on future trips, sit at the 10/20 game and if the players are too good or too tight, then switch to 3/6 until the game improves.

Just don't play scared - do not think "oh no, it is $20 to call, that's a lot of money." Instead, think "the correct play here is to raise," so you put in more chips, just like you would put in more chips of a different color at the 3/6 game. Just focus on making correct plays - but that is general advice that applies to all poker players.

I've played both games you mention, and the 10/20 players are better, but there will be still be a few who limp in half the hands - as opposed to 3/6 where most will limp in every hand.

For the 10/20 game, I usually buy in for one rack of red ($500), and keep a couple of hundred in cash in reserves in case I start off with a cold streak.

jlabruno · 07-02-2012, 03:58 PM

Yeah that is probably what I will do. Test it out more so to see how it plays. Then go back to 3/6 until I get to my 10k goal for that table.

KitCloudkicker · 07-02-2012, 04:04 PM

5k is enough for 10/20. id buy in for $800.

Chasqui · 07-02-2012, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker

5k is enough for 10/20. id buy in for $800.

This (if not running horrible from the start).

Unless the rake+jp+tip is under $4 then the 3/6 isn't beatable due to rake.

Expect to lose bigger $500 pots to runner runner plays at the 10 though

Focus on playing well, and hope to run good.

jlabruno · 07-02-2012, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chasqui

This (if not running horrible from the start).

Unless the rake+jp+tip is under $4 then the 3/6 isn't beatable due to rake.

Expect to lose bigger $500 pots to runner runner plays at the 10 though

Focus on playing well, and hope to run good.

You think a lot of people are chasing runner. runner at a 10/20? Even if two people were at a 3/6 5 out of 10 chase it every time.

Chasqui · 07-02-2012, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jlabruno

You think a lot of people are chasing runner. runner at a 10/20? Even if two people were at a 3/6 5 out of 10 chase it every time.

They do in good 20s,30s, and 40s. So unless there's something special going on in that game, I'd expect it. That's the reason why you want to be in the game.

jlabruno · 07-02-2012, 08:14 PM

Someone mentioned a rake at 10/20. I thought the Borgata took a tc charge of $5 every dealer change as opposed to a rake?

prototypepariah · 07-03-2012, 04:07 PM

they do, west coasters aren't accustom to mid limit games being time back east, especially 10/20. Borg 10/20 rake wise is the best 10 game in the world. I believe it's the only time 10/20 game left. It's eons better than $4/a hand.

6k is more than enough. As long as you can deal with losing 1-1.5 k in a weekend once in a while. Give it a shot game is nice and soft just like 3/6.

jlabruno · 07-03-2012, 04:37 PM

Just a funny tid bit, I was at the Borgata this morning playing 3/6 as I am waiting Till Thursday to dip into 10/20 for the first time.

I do not know how to show the cards with the suit so will type the words instead.

Cards are dealt, I have Q,J off suit and in the 8 position. 3 guys call before it gets to me and one guy had 2,9 of hearts.

5 guys in the hand if you add me and the big blind.

The flop comes 9,8 and 3. Only heart is the 3. 3 Checks, the guy with the two hearts bets 3, I call and the other two guys fold. Big blind guy stays

Next card up is a 10 of hearts so I made my straight. Guy now has 4 hearts and bets 6, mind you he has 2/9 and has been chasing two hearts since the flop. I raise to 12 making my straight. Last guy raises to 18 since he has top two pair. We both call.

Last card comes a heart and of course the guy wins with his flush. The guy called an 18 dollar raise to back to back hearts.

That **** only happens at 3/6 now I am sure you get people who chase at 10/20 and 20/40 But I can not seeing it being the level you see at a 3/6. If that was a 10/20 table no way that guy bets 80 dollars to catch a heart. And low ass hearts to boot

daveopie · 07-03-2012, 05:06 PM

Why didn't you cap the turn when you had the nuts??? Yes, the guy who won the hand made a mistake, but you didn't punish him as much as you could have/should have. You need to take advantage our your opponent mistakes as much as you can when they happen. They may not happen quite as much as you move up limits, but that just means it is that much more important to charge opponents for this mistakes.