Overcalling or overlimping means calling when people have already limped. Open limping means calling when everyone in front of you has folded.

There's no way to overcall from UTG.

He mucks it UTG and also everyone else around here 100% of the time when playing for money.

Show me 6 way limped pots for several hands, give me the 8 and 7 suited, and put me UTG and I toss in a big blind. Willing to take the chance that I'll remember to fold it in the 30. Same with 44. My playing ranges are quite different in the two games. It could also be evidence that the 4 dollars in the 4/8 don't seem important. Also pretty easy to get back later in the hand.

If I'm like 90% confident it will go 7+ ways, I would open limp or open raise.

This happened all the time when I played 4/8.

Cali, my main point isn't necessarily that you can't profitably limp 7-8s utg; its that once people do it and win that once hands start going off 3-4 handed instead of 7 they think, you should fold here, but I play so well post I can limp, or my style works best for me and hat dictates limping (as seen in the quote a few posts up).

For example, when I first started playing bigger, every pro in the game limped 22 utg (I didn't). The game was so good they probably cruel get away with it, but the game gradually got tougher and they kept power limping 22 utg. They lost more than I would have won limping 22 utg in 4-8.

If it's a loose passive game going 6+ to the flop I still might fold 78s utg


It's obviously a bad limp playing in a larger game where people will isolate you.

That still doesn't mean that the hand will make money AKA lol 7+ way pot swings, lol 90% live confidence estimations, lol sample size, hello confirmation bias and slippery slope for the begginer players.

I don't disagree.

But not everyone gets to move up. Some people play where 3/6 is the biggest game.

And sometimes you end up with those weird 20/40 lineups where everyone just decides to limp 80%.

I agree - and even have done it to a degree - that you should beeline to whatever allows you to crush the highest stakes regularly available to you. I just concede that looks different for many people.

In general limping UTG is a suboptimal strategy. Not saying I wouldn't balance my play by limping AA and KK UTG occasionally in an aggressive game. But limping UTG with 87ss at any stakes will not be profitable ITLR.

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I've began to always raise if I'm going to be the first one in PF and if I can't stomach doing that, I fold. It's actually yielded some nice results so far, albeit short-term so more TBD.

Agree that limping in EP in most limit games is typically suboptimal, especially if you aren't a strong flop player. Even then it's not desirable imo.

I noticed I was doing this more than I'd like to so decided to adjust my game and under normal circumstances if I'm going to be the first one in the pot, I will nearly always raise.

You're OTB and 5 people limp in front of you. What do you do with 87s?

Call, and say some rosaries.

I call. The amount of information we have and our position makes a huge difference.

You are denying the existence of small stakes games where you know there would be 5+ limpers? Totally agree that the hand is more valuable in position, but there are games where limping stuff UTG is more profitable than folding it.

In fact, go back and read what jon_locke said. He's not denying that these hands are profitable in some games. He's saying that the bad habit once you reach bigger games is more expensive than the profit in soft ones.

Equity Win Tie
UTG 18.96% 17.79% 1.17% { 87s }
MP1 16.20% 15.04% 1.15% { random }
MP2 16.29% 15.11% 1.18% { random }
MP3 16.19% 15.02% 1.16% { random }
SB 16.17% 15.00% 1.17% { random }
BB 16.21% 15.04% 1.17% { random }

Let's say there are 5 guys who play preflop without looking at their cards, two of them in the blinds. They power limp AK and consider JJ or QQ a "trap hand". Sure, 1% of the time these guys are picking up KK+ and you're facing a raise. Still, our fair share equity is 16% and we're getting nearly 19% h/c. Deduct something for position, and these hands are still profitable. 44 is a little worse, but it plays a lot better OOP. Huge difference? The reason position is valuable is knowing what's going to happen. With a bunch of 80/1 players behind, we already know. They're calling.

Jon's argument is true, and it is correct. If you learn to play like this at 4/8 and 8/16 and then try to play this EP limping style in 20/40, you'll lose a ton of money before you stop. To say that soft passive games don't exist is wrong. To say that this hand isn't profitable in such a game, that will take some doing. 8 people with 1% raising ranges behind you means that 92% of the time the pot won't be raised.

I find it hard to believe that someone who struggles with "don't limp 22 unless you're pretty sure the pot will be multiway" has any hope of being able to beat tighter games. Why are we assuming someone who can't make the easy adjustments is going to make the hard ones?

The reason pps are better than scs from earlier positions has to do with the effect on position postflop after you flop a marginal hand or draw, not preflop; this is something NL players know well.

I've played in some very soft and very passive 4/8 games, but I don't think having 4-5 players playing 80/1 happens very often. If that someone was the case than limping is fine

Agreed, it's very rare.

In a full ring game, 33% of the time at least one player has a top 5% hand, they could be in any position.

i'm looking at this two ways, both of which have already been hinted at by others.

for one, it is important to learn how to play in different game styles. i understand that limping 78 UTG (or overcalling with it in EP) is a terrible move in a higher stakes game where you will definitely have to deal with isolation raises but the fact is, this will not happen in a low limit game. furthermore, the actions of most players in a low limit game will play right into your strategy. they will overcall behind you, build a big pot and most likely play passively post flop, allowing you play a drawing hand for cheap or build a giant pot when you flop gold. if you ignore this because you don't want to build bad habits for your eventual "move up" to higher stakes, well, it shows a weird lack of confidence - the confidence that you'll understand that different games require different strategies.

second, there has been a little debate about the potential for somebody to eventually raise pre-flop in this low limit game. that doesn't change the fact that nobody folds pre flop in these games. if the raise is UTG, you get 5 callers. if you raise on the button behind 5 limpers, they are all calling. therefore, if you limp UTG w/ 78 and it gets raised, yes, you now have to pay two bets, but you are getting involved with a giant pot and have narrowed the range of the pre-flop aggressor down to a very small percentage of hands. that puts you in a very strong position to manipulate the action post flop.

so maybe the question is, do we want to pay 2 bets on our own and gain a little perceived strength (if that matters in a low limit game - maybe another topic) or open limp these hands and be more than willing to pay two small bets if you have a rare situation unfold with a villain raising pre

No you don't want to pay two bets pf with 8 high.

You make it seem like it's impossible for anyone to get dealt a good hand. Most 4-8 players raise preflop with JJ, QQ, KK, AK, s good percentage raise with other good hands. When 8 people are left to act, one of them will get good cards a lot. Sure it may be 5 limps and the button raises which is ok, but it maybe you limp UTG, UTG+1 raises KK and 6 people fold. The point is, it's really hard to know what will happen when 8 people are left to act and the only info we have is we have 8 hi


Also your point about different games requiring different strategies is somewhat wrong/misleading. Example every game requires you to fold 2-7o UTG and raise AA. Eventually you will move up to a stake where every game requires you to fold 7-8s UTG.

its not impossible for anyone to get a good hand. my point is that in a low limit game, you will always know when you're up against a great hand. it makes your hand very easy to play.

furthermore, how often do you see anything more than one raise PF in a low limit game? tell me about the last time you saw a three bet pre flop. it is rare. that is the point. that is why you can limp UTG (or raise pre) with speculative hands. furthermore, the passive play post flop gives you more opportunities to see the turn for free, picking up a lot of outs.

lastly, yes there are a few standard rules that will apply to all limits of LHE, that doesn't really mean much. for instance, in a higher limit game, a check raise from a regular could mean a lot of things. if the regular in the low limit game who hasn't check raised since the Eisenhower Administration check raises, he has a monster. same actions, same game, different stakes, much different realities.

And when you stove with <random> or top 80%, those top 1% hands appear the appropriate % of the time. Thus, if a hand has 19% equity 6 ways, that's versus the correctly dealt AQs (even though plenty of villains don't raise that). You also know that a villain who is so bad/unbalanced to only raise KK+ and then raises is giving something back -- he's playing his hand faceup and you're good enough to understand.
Which would be every online game and most any 10/20 or higher game. Then you get to the debatable point of playing a really soft Bellagio 20/40 where it is limping 6 ways most of the time. Do you go back to your 4/8 "skills" of joining in or keeping the mid-stakes discipline? I'd say it is close and doesn't really matter.

Curious what's your take/strategy on 8/16 Cali game, then? It can be as loose as 4/8, and rarely has any pros.