In a fairly loose passive (pf) game, what is your 3 betting range in the BB?

10 handed game was often 4-6 folks for one raise pf.

E.g. early-mid open raises, some cold calls, sb calls you? No one folds for one more from bb pf, opener won't cap.

I was 3 betting AQo+, 10 10 +, but felt like it was building pots for others, giving up deception. So if i hit and led out i would get called down and beat, and if i missed led it was futile (building more for others) and if i missed and checked it would be two bets back to me, and i would need to weakly give up.

Started checking back some stronger hands pf, and i felt like i could get away cheaper when i missed, or value more post flop as needed. Results oriented, or is checking bb the new 3 bet?

20-40 borgata.

Sanity check?

Depends on who raises. If I've seen someone limp, I 3 bet tighter and call more. If they raise or fold first in, I 3 bet based on their opening position until I get a better read.

Readless in this spot:

Assuming 3 coldcalls plus the small blind, I'm 3 betting TT+, ATs+, AQo+, KJs+, and maybe QJs because he won't cap.

Assuming 2 coldcalls plus the small blind, I'm 3 betting TT+, AJs+, AQo+, KQs.

However, since you somehow know he won't cap, you must have a handle on his opening range. If it's looser than 88+, A9s+, ATo+, KJs+, KQo, QJs, JTs, then I'd add some 3 betting hands. If it's tighter than that, I'd tighten up.

I was trying to keep this non-read specific. Other than noting only rarely was the game capped multi-way pre flop, and then sometimes by me.

But most of these folks were not opening raise or fold only - they were occasionally open limping. The cold callers could be a varied range from set mining small pp, to the occasional small suited connectors/one gappers. But also with premium aces... true jj+ aq+ would usually be 3bet.

Just wondering if all of the cold callers somehow devalues the merits of a bb 3bet when the raiser was in earlyish position.

Note, in also not speaking of times when it is limped early and there is a late raiser and I can make it two more to the early position limpers from the BB

I 3bet BB in this situation with a pretty value heavy range (TT+, AK, AQs, AQo sometimes, KQs sometimes, AJs sometimes). If I was POSITIVE the opener wouldn't cap, I might add in KJs/QJs/99, but there's no way of knowing that and these hands play fine in a multiway field without the initiative. If there are a bunch of limps and then someone in late position raises, I start 3betting with a wider range.

When a loose passive opponent raises, you should give it massive respect.

The general rule is this: reraise the top half of hands that the raiser raises. You can make exceptions to be wider if IP or if you can drive out the blinds, but half is a good rule of thumb.

So if someone is so passive they overlimp TT, I'm not 3b JJ, especially not OOP. And you run into those people on occasion. But if it's limped to a BTN who would raise with 98s, I'm 3betting pretty wide anticipating (1) nobody will fold and (2) that a LAG may even cap with a worse hand.

You sound frustrated with running average in multiway pots.

In these spots you are building pots for someone else the large majority of the time, and you should continue to 3 bet hands with an equity edge. You are winning these one out of 4 or 5 times, so keep thing in perspective.

When you 3bet AQ the flop comes 789, 6 ways you check and call, easy game.

Indeed.

Sorry Cali, but I disagree with this because it doesn't account for neither our equity nor the presence of the coldcallers. This would have us 3 betting 50% vs a 100% raising maniac, which would include the likes of T8o. That can't possibly be correct imo. The coldcallers matter because as more of them enter the pot, suited connectors go up in value and big offsuit cards go down in value.

I think Cali is talking about how to handle a PFR open with no limpers/coldcallers. In that case, I'd say being twice as tight is *too* tight. The potential dead money means our range only has to be slightly more tight than the original PFR, particularly if PFR is Co/HJ and we are BTN.

+1

This doesn't really sound like range question, and sounds more like you just aren't very comfortable playing out of position multiway

Possibly. But also trying to see if others think that if you dont give up much if anything by calling in bb (as opposed to raising) as you gain deception and will likely gain extra bets on later streets when you hit. And what you may give up is offset by what you saved by not raising when you missed, that maybe just calling multiway oop with premium hands is viable play.

Seeing that many wont 3 bet heads up from the BB. Is this one step further?

In that spot and especially versus a strong range, you're giving up a lot of info. "Dude, I don't care at all that you're a nit and opened UTG, feel my value 3 bet." How many hands can you profitably play and of those how many can be three bet for profit. You're partitioning a small range, and you're OOP in a HU pot where the information is valuable. Also, HU you can c/r and get back your lost equity most of the time. In a multiway pot where you might have a strong equity edge, you could be throwing away multiple bets for "deception" in a spot where nobody notices or cares.

Let's go to an extreme. Nut job opens UTG at a full table. 5 callers call, any of whom would 3 bet this guy with a strong hand. They're loose, though. Now you're in the BB in a 7 way pot with a raise that means nothing.

For all the people I'm encouraging to stove, here you go. People like 3 betting with JTs in this spot. Good idea? Remember, we need a little over 14% for fair share. Let's want a little more due to position.
Equity Win Tie
UTG 14.27% 13.15% 1.12% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
UTG+1 13.69% 12.50% 1.18% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
UTG+2 13.73% 12.55% 1.18% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP1 13.65% 12.51% 1.14% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP2 13.80% 12.60% 1.19% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP3 13.71% 12.55% 1.16% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
BB 17.16% 15.88% 1.28% { JTs }

Should we be tight with hands like AJo? Seems not
Equity Win Tie
UTG 14.52% 13.47% 1.04% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
UTG+1 13.95% 12.92% 1.04% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
UTG+2 13.96% 12.92% 1.04% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP1 13.80% 12.76% 1.04% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP2 13.96% 12.93% 1.03% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP3 14.10% 13.05% 1.05% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
BB 15.71% 14.29% 1.43% { AJo }

Let's get nutty. (I actually pass here, because this hand doesn't like that many flops).

Equity Win Tie
UTG 14.80% 13.79% 1.01% { 22+, A2s+, K2s+, Q2s+, J4s+, T6s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, A2o+, K5o+, Q7o+, J7o+, T7o+, 98o }
UTG+1 14.15% 13.09% 1.06% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
UTG+2 14.31% 13.25% 1.06% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP1 14.27% 13.20% 1.07% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP2 14.10% 13.00% 1.10% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
MP3 14.24% 13.14% 1.10% { 99-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K2s, Q6s+, J7s+, T7s+, 96s+, 86s+, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, 32s, AQo-A2o, K8o+, Q8o+, J8o+, T8o+, 98o }
BB 14.14% 12.52% 1.62% { ATo }



You should be playing around with this. My ranges are flat and capped for the callers. How loose do they have to be for hand X to be profitable to 3 bet? How much edge over fair share do you need? This could be none, because your 3 bets will be over-respected.

In that case, I'd definitely loosen up from my recommendations.

Nice stoves.

3 betting HU or multiway out of BB is an old school tagfish line. If maniac is c-betting UTG close to always, why not just x/r flops that hit our range and trap potentially 3-4 players for 2 bets OTF?

So you're certain that all good players call every time in the BB and never 3 bet in any situation?

Not 3 betting AA from the BB 7+ ways is borderline criminal

Couldn't we let him explain strongly that it would be tag-fishy, first.

Combining HU and multiway as the same situation is absurd.

Trapping players on the flop means they all flopped something to continue with. 5-7 ways pre flop we collect from all of them, including the guys holding J7, 85, Q9, regardless if they hit or not.

Because they might fold the flop, but they won't fold preflop for one more bet?

Also, maniac could reraise, either pushing some people out and leaving their dead money, or (more likely) building a bigger pot in which you should have the most equity.

Thanks, and I agree stoves have merit.

But I was in a position where my preflop 3 bet was respected. So against a flop that hit my range, I would get no more action (though i did gave the 3 bets on pre). But on most flops which missed, I am forced to give up or chase when way behind having bloated the pot.

So i was wondering similar to heads up where many won't 3 bet pre because of all the information being given up is a similar tact worthwhile multi-way... again this 20-40 was fairly loose passive so agression post flop was usually by folks that did hit. This situation doesnt come up that often. But in this particular session i had AKo or AKs 5 times in BB when it was opened early or mid, and it was cold called in several spots before coming around.

I 3bet pf 4 of 5 times. 3 of 4 I bloated the pot for others. 1 time I hit and had no action. 1 time i didn't raise pf I missed, and quietly chk folded flop when it was 2 bets back to me - no one the wiser. Felt that if I did hit I would have been super disguised and able to make up that loss of not 3betting pf.

Lol small sample size. But seeing this dynamic live was making me think about different lines...playing abc is too face up at times?!

My point is there really isn't always and never in LHE. Yes it is a mechanical game but when you are OOP, it helps to occasionally call in the BB to manipulate your range. Sometimes it pays off to flat call with aces on the A947 board when someone goes 8 bets OTT with 99, bc zomg you can never have aces you would have 3bet preflop.

Probably not unreasonable ranges for live games:

Even if we call it 35% equity 7 ways, by just calling, the pot is 14 small bets and a pot share of 4.9 (+2.9 small bets). By three betting, we get action from this exact range, so 21 small bets and a 7.35 small bet pot share (+4.35 small bets). That's 1.45 small bets worth of equity. Are we really losing that equity postflop against people who cold call EP opens with QTo? And having two sets by the turn is so exceedingly rare, that it's really not worth using as a proxy example (AA has a set or better by the turn about 12% of the time, this better being exactly a set 8.12%). You can start seeing the ridiculousness of this exercise when you take the probability of having top set times the probability of someone having second set TIMES the probability that nothing better than a set is out there (straight, flush) and comparing the extra value you get from this situation to the value missed from not three betting preflop.

Plus you forget how much value gets missed when the EP opener has KJs and checks the T83tt flop.

So we've gone from it being tag-fishy ever to raise OOP, to it being a good idea to "vary our play"?

Where I'm going with this is

1. Multiway pots against poor players are different than HU pots vs. experts.
2. We can have a wide value raising range, so we're not defining our hand as much as we would be versus an expert with a tight opening range (say defending our BB vs. a 6m UTG open). We don't just have to have KK+.
3. Our stronger hands have tons of value, that we can get that value PF from the entire field. We don't always get all of that value on the flop.
4. In games loose enough for this to even be an issue, you have plenty of opponents who aren't reliable cbetting machines.

You should not bother with deception when multiway and when the pot becomes big .
When the pot gets big, they will chase you down no matter shat, and often correctly.
So you will not miss value if you do not use deception.
It just cost you money on the street you have the best value for your hand if you have AA for example.

Read this book : theory of poker

To add, big 1 pair hand like AA and AK (when you hit ) make the most money pf and on the flop while implied odds hand (67s, etc.) make their money on the turn and river when they raise you with the BIg bets.

So you want the little suited connectors to pay has much has possible pf because the flop will miss them often and you have your equity edge right there anyway .

So multiway, it is imperative with your best hand to jam pf no matter what position you are to make them pay the maximum for the times they miss the flop and fold to compensate when they hit the flop and make you pay lot of BBs when they hit the turn or river .

Again, you should read TOP ( theory of poker) and read the chapter when pot get too big.
If you win it right away you should be happy!

Anyway, moving on

Your solution is very easy to solved and being said many times in some books.

If your raise gets too much respect and you are too "easy to read" the answer is not too loose value with your best hands by slowplaying ( not 3betting pf).
think about it.
An opportunity has presented itself.
If your better hands are missing some value because you always play too tight , just use some weaker hands SOMETIMES and played it like you have AA !
Sometimes take a hand like 88 or JTs and 3bet with it !
When an A flop you cbet and you should take donw the pot if they think you are too tight.

Poker is a "joggling" (balancing game) .

If you get caught for the rare time you do it, they might give the action you want afterward.

But remember, it might not be so beneficial in big/huge pot 5-7 ways to call you down, because often they have the corrects odds to call you down and make you loose this huge pot !
You would prefer they fold

You should be glad to win like 15sb ( and they all fold to your c-bet on the flop) for the price of 4sb than losing 23-25 sb pot by paying 8sb to the river by calling you down and they outdraw you on the river because they think your too loose....

Conclusion, mixing HU strategy with multyway ( never 3betting OOP with big hands for example) and big pot with small pot strategy ( by needing to use deception for example) is pretty bad imo.

Bleh.. Doug is so much better posting !

Thanks for all the replies.