***The official KK flops an Ace thread***

[nonsimplesimon]

I know there have been many threads written about this and I did a search but it was hard to find exactly what I was looking for. So I thought I would start in hopes I can clean up this possible leak and help others.

The topic is exactly what to do when we have KK (or a supposed high pocket pair) and an ace flops and we face a donk. It seems everytime this happens I often find myself in no-mans land.... and I go for a hero fold - sometimes folding the best hand.

Here are two situations where I think I made bad lay-downs.

Hand 1 20/40
Villain is an erratic baby boomer rec player. No reads at this point in the session other than I saw him bluff raise the turn (insta mucked when called otr). When he's the pf aggressor I saw him check the flop (not cbet) twice but raise the turn when the other players stabbed at it. Still early in the session though - I know he's a wealthy rec player.

Villain opens UTG. it folds to hero who 3! KK. It folds to tight passive old man in the bb who calls two. UTG calls.

3w flop 9.5sb: A93 - bb checks, villian donks, hero folds not sure what bb is going to do.

Hand 2 8/16
Villain is a dealer playing on the tight aggressive side. I saw him cr/3 a set otf multiway - but otherwise has a good taggy winning table image.

villian limps utg. folds to hero in LJ who raises KK. Folds to villian who calls.

HU flop 5sb: A75 - villian donks, hero folds.

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I'd say this is such a common thing in our game I'd be happy if people posted their big PP hands (TT-KK) of which they face a flop or a turn with an overcard. We can get a good discussion going on how to deal with such situations as I know I struggle with them still and could use some guidance. If mods don't like this feel free to change the title for me and delete this paragraph. thank you.

[albacorela]

the biggest contributers are whether you 2-bet or more and how many others in the pot

My fav' was whe time I raised 88 and then barrelled down on board of like Q76JA, got called on river and MHWG.

[ChocolateMoo]

I typically try to pay attention to two things in these spots.

1. My image
2. Villain's tendencies

If you have an aggressive image (I typically do in my games), then people adjust by trying to donk a wider range and forcing you to reveal the strength of your hand. I try to get a feel for which players are *annoyed* with me and are trying to play back. These are the players against whom you want to show down more liberally.

A lot of villains are very polarized in their betting patterns. Some will always slowplay flushes, some will always lead with weak aces (or just check/call them down all the way), some will always donk draws, some will have such a low donking % that it's always monsters. When I'm not in a hand, I spend most of my time classifying villain tendencies for exploitative purposes later on.

For hand 1, it's probably close either way. What's villain's PFR % (estimated)? Villain didn't cap, so his hand looks like AT-AQ/JJ-88/broadway hands with clubs/random spazz hands. What's villain's donking tendencies, and what is your image?

I usually highly discount flushes in these spots, as it's so easy for villain to c/raise either flop/turn/river given we are the aggressor. Given villain's description, this is very often times KQ/KJ/KT/QJ with a club, or a pp with a club. It is also possible that villain can have an ace with/without a club that is *betting for information*. We need to call 5 sb to win about 15, so about 3:1. I'm going to call down but fold if a club comes at any point. We are targeting broadway club draws as our value range.

Hand 2: This is a trivial fold. TAG player leads on dry board, small pot, just let it go. Be glad he's saving you a sb. The moment his donking % becomes worth mentioning, start adjusting by calling him down lighter and/or raising a big street with your value hands.

[nonsimplesimon]

Villian in hand 1 would have a pretty high pfr. I saw him open K6o and 85s from utg. Not sure of his donking tendencies ... just really awful at poker.

[Chasqui]

You need to figure out their donking range by observing their play or calling down a few times. This can't be answered in a vacuum.

I play with some whose donking range includes air and small underpairs when 3 to the flop. Folding against them is terrible.

[nonsimplesimon]

Originally Posted by albacorela

the biggest contributers are whether you 2-bet or more and how many others in the pot

My fav' was whe time I raised 88 and then barrelled down on board of like Q76JA, got called on river and MHWG.

No fear is the answer eh? I'd would've wussed out and checked that river LOL.

[jbruels]

Originally Posted by ChocolateMoo

Given villain's description, this is very often times KQ/KJ/KT/QJ with a club, or a pp with a club. It is also possible that villain can have an ace with/without a club that is *betting for information*. We need to call 5 sb to win about 15, so about 3:1. I'm going to call down but fold if a club comes at any point. We are targeting broadway club draws as our value range.

This. I'm calling down in these spots expecting to loose 2/3 of the time. However, my opponents tend to be much more passive, check-calling down and beating with a weak A. At least I've been getting a little better at checking back on the river and saving a bet.

Interesting post!

[leo doc]

Originally Posted by ChocolateMoo

Hand 2: This is a trivial fold. TAG player leads on dry board, small pot, just let it go. Be glad he's saving you a sb. The moment his donking % becomes worth mentioning, start adjusting by calling him down lighter and/or raising a big street with your value hands.

I don't know if the two hands were played in the same session or if the dealer (when he's dealing) has observed OP laying down good hands on A-hi flops, but I'm not folding here. This is WA/WB and I'm getting to sd.

[BJJIII]

Since you don't have king of clubs I think a fold is good in #1

Probably raising that flop on#2 and betting turn. Check behind on river

[leo doc]

Originally Posted by BJJIII

Probably raising that flop on#2 and betting turn. Check behind on river

If you raise the flop, he'll fold his air and non-ace hands. You'll value town yourself if he has an ace.

[Munga30]

I just wrote a bit about this in another thread but you have loads of hands worse than KK that all fit into the "second pair" box. Start folding from the bottom of this range, not from the top and use the top to bluffcatch and/or play WA/WB, bet when checked to etc. It's only when you have a super reliable read on the donker (and the players behind) that you'll be exploiting the crap out of them by folding all the way up to KK.

Edit to add: the situation seems to cause a lot of pain. Thinking this way takes a lot of the pain out of it. The high hands take comfort in knowing that they're exploiting aces donks with good folds at the bottom while the low hands take comfort in knowing that, if they're bluffing, I have hands with which to catch/punish those.

[JoeSixPutt]

Do you guys think a flop call is only logical if we intend to call turn and river?

In both these spots I usually end up calling flop and sometimes fold turn if I think the guy is capable of being chicken on turn by checking unimproved draw, low pair, air. Folding to donk bets all day long seems weak and easily exploitable.

[Arseface]

im calling down in hand #2

[DougL]

Originally Posted by JoeSixPutt

Do you guys think a flop call is only logical if we intend to call turn and river?

In both these spots I usually end up calling flop and sometimes fold turn if I think the guy is capable of being chicken on turn by checking unimproved draw, low pair, air. Folding to donk bets all day long seems weak and easily exploitable.

You have to consider whether the guy is capable of firing 3 barrels bluffing or value betting worse than an A for three streets. Some of your live villains don't bluff three streets and may miss value with a hand like A8. Against those villains, you don't have to commit to calling down. Their range converges, so you can use that info to make a fold. Be particularly aware of the guy who stabs once -- is it a bluff, is it a weak A, etc.

[AKQJ10]

FWIW i think thematic threads like this are fantastic. I've been thinking a lot about the best way to organize thousands of HHs.