Raising can't be good against extremely aggressive guy when we are either slightly ahead or have an ok draw when behind. Lets try to collect 2BB from his bluffs and also his "what can you have?" river calls when he decides to check.

Yeah, I'm a little surprised everyone is so gung-ho about raising and I'm not sure why

If SB is maniacal as you say he is, this looks like an easy flop raise, allowing us to price out a lot of hands we wouldnt normally be able to.

ZOMG covered it, but this is terrible advice.

We're getting what, 11:1 on our money w/ best relative position on the PFR?

And if we raise and a good LAGTAG cold 3 bets this board, what range do you put him on? Think he's going to just slam 3 bets in with tens in a spot where we can have all the strong hands sans top set?

Turns out though just because you beat one guys range doesn't necessarily mean you're ahead of the other 4.

Let's take your situation.
I raise the flop , UTg 3bet all fold, i am going to a SD no problem for me.

when we raise and get 3 bet the pot we have 15-1 when back to us so easy call.
we call 2 BB in a 18 BB pot , we need 11% equity, i am never folding i am price in.
I rather uses this line than playing passively and letting someone outdraw me cheaply.
This a a decent size pot and i have no problem increase the risk of paying a bit too much on the flop if i can increase the %chance of winning that pot .

If UTG 3bets the flop it is suicidal to show down UI. I will still take a card off, but it's going to be very hard to continue unless I turn 2 pair or a straight draw.

you are saying you fold the turn 16-1 ui ?
i would call for sure the turn hoping to hit a 9 on the river or the small chance he might check the river behind.


you would fold the river getting 17-1 ?
What would be the minimum for you than to call down ?
AJ ?AQ?
Do we 3bet AK and some AQs, AJs pf in BB ?
If yes, we do not have a lot of one pair hand to calldown in our range imo once we c/r this flop .

Regardless, i just think raising the flop is a no-brainer.
We might not just agree where we should fold our hand further down the hand in a very specific situation.

.

nvm, posting in a hurry before leaving home = bad

That is a monstrous leak. What range do you put UTG on in this spot?

There's certainly merit to calling down if you call the initial flop bet and UTG raises, but calling down against the hypothetical three bet is absolute suicide and lighting a BB on fire on the river.

Do we agree we at least go to the river 100% of the time ?
Is a flop raise a no-brainer ?

As for the river you know, i hardly ever fold , true that is what i start on working on but online, i just cant do it ...
You would be surprise how often i am good when i call down,
At least 1 in 10 .

But where i disagree and the reason i do not care much about it, contrary to the general belief here, i am not sure it is a big leak for losing 1BB on the river in a pot near 10 BB pot with too pair.
It is a specific situation that do not come along often and i am pretty sure you would not fold higher A here ( do you 3bet pf AQ and if no do you fold too on river ? Probably not right ?)

We might fold because we are at the botton of our range on the river but has the pot get huge, i hate folding the bottom of my value range on the river for 1 bet for the rare occasion it happen anyway .
Dont you as well, by default , assess some minmum % of non sense play from your opponents ?

How much of this is bec you're bringing a 6-max perspective to the discussion? We are talking 8-16 FR live, an entirely different animal.

What kind of nonsense play are you expecting when he cold 3 bets you in a 6 way raised pot? In a live game?

Weaker A ( A7s with backdoor flush draw) or same hand (suited cause i guess A9o is a fold pf ..) has us.
Good lagtag should open those hand UTG right ?

Seems like wishful thinking, tbh.

Even if I did have A7s in my range as UTG, I'm not 3 betting it here.

Even if I did have A7s in my range as UTG and did 3 bet it, I'm not betting both big streets UI.

If we want to show down, we can simply call the initial bet and see how UTG reacts. if he raises, there's still merit in showing down.

I know it is bad but zomg ask me some non-sense play that UTG might do like 5% to 10% of the time due to w.e reason .
Someone on tilt might

Not raising flop is aweful because we let too many weaker hand in from other opponents while here we speak about one situation that will not happen too often.

Only need to make it 1 in 10-20 times ( when we speaking anything about calling the river with 10+ BB pot )

As for my backgroud of 6 max it as no bearing on the pf and flop play.
It has Just for the river call because of tigher range from 3 seats in earlier position from a very specific situation like here that should not come up too often taking into account the pf callers , donker pf and getting 3bet by exactly UTG .

Yeah but what are you really protecting against? if you raise everyone is getting at least 8:1 so it going to be tough to get gutshots or 5 outers to fold. All you're really protecting against is pp's I'm not sure protecting against that out ways the fact we're easily dominated in a 6way pot. Especially since you seem to be auto committed to putting in 3.5 bets. I mean you're kinda protecting against back doors draws but you have a 9 so they're probably just as good for us

In fact you could easily argue that you can get more protection by waiting to raise the turn since you can see if anyone raises the flop and on favorable outcomes you may be able to raise the SB's turn lead and face the field with two big bets

Which is a much, much better option IMO. The T8's and stuff that we want folded on the flop most likely won't, but if a brick peels off on the turn, even a station is probably not going to chase on the 2 pair draw (and if he is, that's fine for us too because we're ahead).

By raising flop, we're jamming with a guy who literally has every strong hand on this board in his range besides like 86 and A6o to act immediately after us. Is it really that big of a debacle if he decides to peel the flop w/ QQ to try and bink his set / he thinks it might be the best hand often enough?

As a tangential discussion, with flop as played I'd hate raising the turn HU against a guy described as very aggressive post (he can fold his bluffs and weak hands, we can't fold)

fair enough.
i sure think our hand was worth a raise postflop, from your point of view waiting the turn seem better to raise and see how UTG react too.

i just tough we had the equity advantage now so might as well raise and since this hand was non standard ( SB donk) i could not count on SB to fire again on turn.

true 8-1 gives some pretty decent odds to call for 5 outs.
seem better to wait the turn yeah with the added bonus to see if UTG action.
All the pocket pair should fold tho to our raise and pot is pretty big and still they can make a mistake by folding on flop too since theyb have no idea if we already have 2 pair or a set and not only TP mid kicker
guess it is a give and take and which factors we think has the most value.

Just an aside, it's one thing to call a river when you're like never good if, say, BTN opens AA, you defend JJ, you x/r AJ4 and call down from his 6 bet on the turn 7, because it's such a rare cooler spot that it's not worth discussing.

In this scenario, if say we raise flop, get 3'd behind and it's HU, we're getting 12.5:1 on a call. Say the board runs out rags and we have like 5% equity on a river call if we give him chops and the occasional mega-baarrel or what-have-you, so that our river call versus his range is a -0.325 bet error.

It sounds like "not a big deal", but say tight dude one opens with a range of (77+, ATs+, KQs, AJo+) and tight dude two three bets him with a range of (99+, AQs+, AKo). Fish is on the button with 54s (say for simplicity the two blinds are telegraphing folds). When the dust settles, he'll have 23.5% equity against both of their ranges, putting 3 sb into a pot that's 10.5 sb total. His mistake is, from an equity standpoint, around -0.53 small bets (call it -0.27 big bets). So in a range analysis, calling the river in spot one has roughly the same expectation (for the sake of argument) as a play we would absolute destroy if someone posted about it on here.

It's of course all relative, and the margins are insanely small (it's hard to determine someone's bluffing frequency and the difference between 5% and 10%, especially in a small sample live environment), but we can deduce that a normal, decent playing LAGTAG is not going to be cold 3 betting an A86 flop with no equity very often at all (and certainly below any sort of GTO equilibrium point). And if we remove that, then it becomes wicked hard to find much of anything in this hypothetical spot that justifies calling down.

Disagree strongly. This is the perfect player to raise thin and you have the perfect position on him. Any time you find an opponent who likes to be aggressive and can air bluff you always want to isolate the **** out of them and whenever you can give them a little extra rope to hang themselves.