8-16 at Commerce.

I hold As8s in the SB. Five players call, I call and BB checks.

Flop comes KsQs6d. 3off bets, button calls and I call.

Turn comes Jd. 3off bets and button raises.

Now what? I'm new to the table with no significant reads.

Count your outs. Count the # of unknown cards in the deck. Count the number of bets in the pot. Count how many you have to commit to chase those.

Is (# of outs) / (total # of cards) >= (# of bets to commit) / (# of bets to commit + # of bets in pot)?

You let the pot get too small

i like flop play

Me too.

Very tempted to raise pre, unless limpers are the type to backraise or are tight and weighted towards AJ, 88 type hands.

As played, we should probably fold our NFD. =(. No immediate odds, bad implied odds situation, and it could get 3b/capped.

Donk lead flop.

I like flop also. But I.raise pre

This is a gross spot. But it perfectly illustrates the value of a turn raise to face villains with improper odds to call their FDs.

7-handed pre, 3-handed post. All for one bet per street yields a pot that is 5 bb without rake/drop. Turn bet and raise makes it 8:2 to you, without closing the action. You may have only 9 outs, or ~18% to hit (a little worse than 4:1).

Look left. What was LJ's reaction to the turn raise? Is he gonna call or 3-bet? If he's telegraphing call, then call. If he's telegraphing more action, fold. Because paying 4 bb for this draw would suck.

This, though I think we're closer to 10 -10.5 outs here (non-diamond T's may be a chop, T may be no good).

But yes, a clear example of "look left". Firstly, don't even think of a semibluff. No one is folding at this level, when they have a hand they like enough to raise the turn. Second, just know you do have some implieds when you spike (though you may want to donk if you hit on the river, given your position on the raiser).

Raise pre (Similar to your AQs from previous thread) for value.

As played, fold.

Fold?? I think the outs are pretty clean. Without any pfr, there's unlikely to be a set of K, Q, or J. That leaves possible set 6 for a FH draw.

Immediate odds are 4:1+ We're still okay if it gets 3 bet. Only if it gets capped do we lose odds. Three non-spade tens to a chop or win give additional cushion.

There are not two sets out there to inflate the river.

Immediate odds are 2:1, facing 2 cold on the turn. (Minus $6 from the rack)

My bad. I thought it was 5 players to the flop not 7.
5:1 on the turn you can call.

I hate this hand now though. Raise pre and bet out this flop.

I call pre- and lead the flop. As played I call the turn.

But there's absolutely no way to model this out and determine what is actually the proper way to play this hand multi-way. So take any reasonable line.

Fair enough. What is at the bottom of your preflop raising range here ?

Nit. Make king maker pots

The decision on the turn, in my opinion, is a marginal spot. It's either raise or fold . Calling is slightly above break even taken implied odds in to consideration. Especially the possibility of getting raised.

Raise a possibility depending on meta game but original posts lack information. Taken the raising line can do two different things: buy outs and give u bluff equity on the river. Obviously if your 4 bet u fold.

What matters at this point is the size of the pot and if it's worth pursuing. I mean u can take a super aggro line and take a bluff on the river that may only need 1/10 to work.

Idk maybe I'm wrong

I used to raise this like it was my job preflop, but I think it's actually more contingent on table conditions. Truth is, when you don't flop a flush draw or an ace, you're usually stuck peeling in tough spots and/or can't protect a vulnerable hand; this tends to you "bleeding" bets preflop and on the flop that adds up over time.

Whether to raise preflop is so dependent on what kind of range people on limping. If you can pinpoint a couple of players who will limp complete suited trash and/or offsuit trash, raise it like it's your job. If you think people are limping pp's, decent suited connectors, and some better aces, I'd limp preflop.

On the flop, I'm a fan of leading out, because I don't mind that much if raised. Our equity is such that folding out hands like A9/A6 is good for us, and we get the chance to 3bet if multiple players call or at least ensure one bet goes in on the flop. Even when hands like AT/AJ continue (gutshot + over), we face them with some RIO nightmare on Js/Ts turn/rivers.

As played, calling and c/raising both have merits; it's contigent on flop-bettor's tendencies. Does he 3bet a king? Does he bet the flop with hands like 6x/J9/Qx/AJ, etc.? The wider his flop betting range and the more passive he is, the more inclined you should be to raise.

On the turn, you're getting 4:1. You have 7 clean spade outs, 2 potentially dirty ones, and 4 straight outs (potentially fewer against straights). It's pretty hard to have BOTH straight outs + board-pairing spades be dirty unless both other opponents are holding a straight + set/2p. I'd prob take 2/3 of my dirty outs here for estimation: that gives us 11 total outs.

78/22 = 3.75:1. You have IMMEDIATE odds to call. If it gets back around and capped, you will need to call 2 to win 14. That's 7:1, which is about right for when you only have 7 outs.

Call turn.

fur coat dilemma

you realize this is a limit holdem forum, right? on the turn, in the various situations you describe, we're going to be getting a good price to continue with our strong draws to the nuts. folding (especially if we raise and it gets reraised or 4bet behind us) would be bad.

How can you say that when we may have to call 4 bets on the turn.

I generally don't raise pre but I could easily be convinced otherwise. Basically hate making big pot then check folding so many flop we miss. Also like having relatively strong hands in small blind for all time flop is checked to late position limpers tat will stab at any lot.