I may or may not have posted this before, but one of my best friends is one of those people who can walk into a poker room and walk out with $600+ of someone else's money basically at will. He's been playing for over 10 years and has a lifetime winnings of well over 5 figures. Unfortunately opportunities for him to give me poker lessons over the last 3 years have been frustratingly few and far between due to our jobs and family lives.

Finally, last April we went on a Card Player Cruises cruise together, so we had the entire week to sit at tables together and talk poker over dinner. Off topic, if anyone is curious as to what that experience is like, feel free to PM me - I love talking about cruises, I'm totally addicted.

The #1 piece of feedback he had for me was that I wasn't playing the players, I was only playing my cards. He said he could read every hand I played by the way I bet it.

With all of that background information out of the way, let's get to the hand. It was a 4/8LHE table. Sadly, very few fish pay the outlandish cruise fee to go on a poker cruise. I think every single player at the table at least had a clue how to play, few hands had more than 3 people seeing a flop, so SSHE basically went out the window, and that was pretty much the case all week. I still had fun, don't get me wrong, the games just weren't easy .

Anyway, he's sitting to my right, I'm in the CO, he's in the HJ By the way, he *hates* limit hold'em because "they always chase and catch" - he's almost exclusively an NL player - he was just sitting with me to help me learn to play. UTG limps, folds around to him, he raises, I fold. He elbows me and shows me his cards - T8o. He ends up heads up against the limper.

I don't remember the exact cards on the board but I don't remember it being particularly wet. The flop and turn went check/bet/call. The river went check/bet/fold. He turned to me and whispered, "THAT'S how you do it!"

So I'd like to get opinions from the experts here - was my friend just showing off, or did his 10 years of experience allow him to get a read that that player commonly chases draws and gives up when they don't get there?

I think it's interesting that your friend hates the game because players chase and then goes ahead and raises an UTG limper with T high from the HJ.

Your friends play pre flop is terrible.

Post flop is impossible to analyze without knowing what's on the board. Given the weaknes of his Iso raise I suspect he was intent on betting the whole way and got lucky when the UTG folded.

BTW..I'm not sure I want limit lessons from a NL player. I trust you recognize the vast difference between the games.

Which statement is more true for the table at the time would dictate whether it's *occasionally* profitable to get out of line with something like T8o

I like limit because I can chase and catch, I do not understand why people prefer to play in a game where you're supposed to fold so much.

I hate to be the one to break it to you, but your friend sounds like a fish, or at least someone who has maybe seen some poker movies, and maybe played some big bet games, but has no clue about limit games.

Just the claim that someone can "win at will" should set off alarm bells in your mind, since, in fact, poker is a gambling game. It might be that you're too credulous, or perhaps results-oriented, in how you evaluate poker stuff.

As far as the exact hand, preflop is reasonably bad, and postflop he has ten high so the only way to win the pot is to keep betting.

you gotta play the player playa

I've isolation raised T8o in the past, but it was always against someone that had a sufficiently capped range.

Also, flopping a straight helps.

This is exactly what was running through my head when I read the OP.

Of course "win at will" is an exaggeration. He gets sucked out on just like everyone else - I've seen it.

I won't waste too much internet bandwidth defending him, but I don't think he's a fish. He's been winning too often and for over too extended a period of time. He won enough on the cruise to pay for the entire cruise. He won a tournament at Bay 101 where first prize was over $4K. He's played in Vegas and won enough to pay for his family's entire vacation. He seems like a good TAG to me - when he has a big hand, even TPTK or an overpair, he's not afraid to shovel his stack into the pot if he thinks the villain will call with less (and they often do).

But you're probably right that I don't know enough to know if he's good or just lucky.

Your friend had to hope that something like the following occurred: you would fold in the CO, button would fold, SB would fold, and then assuming both BB and limper call (sounds like BB folded preflop instead), that neither BB nor limper goes to showdown. OR that he hits the flop with his mediocre-at-best hand harder than the other players in the hand. He also has to not have the image of being a guy who plays too many preflop hands and raises with junk or else he will get called down light.

Certainly it is possible to have reads that make several of those things much more possible, but knowing they would all work out is a bit of a stretch. I think your friend got lucky on this hand more than he played it skillfully.

BBB, thank you for being the voice of reason!

Also, well over 5 figures in 10 years?

Again, possibly a bad choice of words. His winnings over the last 10 years exceed his losses in the same timeframe by well over $10,000, maybe even by over $20,000 - that's all I meant.

Just to give you a reference, many in this forum win/lose that amount in a few hours of poker, some even in one hand!

It's very unlikely a strong winning player would brag about a $1000 win per year. That's a $0.3-$2/hr "win rate" depending on how many hours he player per year. OTOH if he was exclusively playing $.5/$1 limit on stars that would be quite good.

Not sure we can learn that much from just one hand, but let's try. Your friend might have played the hand differently had he not been so good at spotting tells and tendencies. For one thing, he counted on you (and the button) to fold. Secondly, if he had observed this limper playing a lot of hands to the river with weak draws then giving up (say, folding anything weaker than top pair), then his strategy of barreling off nets him a profit. It could also be that the tells he gave off, including showing you his cards, were interpreted by the fish as a strong hand. Without history, we have no way of evaluating, and on paper, your friend looks like a LAGfish.

I'm with MoM and others, it could be that your friend is LAGfishy in a LHE game, it could be that he had an expert read and a plan, it could be that he was showing off for you and is otherwise very good at poker. It could also be that your friend can't consider 4/8 stakes meaningful enough to play anything resembling normal poker.

I guarantee you if you found many of the regular posters here in a 4/8 game, they'd play like this and more. If you were behind and a favorite to fold, getting HU with a limper might seem super fun/standard to raise most anything. As a shorthanded player, getting HU in the hand is comfortable. Once HU, it would be normal to play out the hand and see if we could hit or win. It might not be strictly winning poker, but as a good post flop player A) the money isn't meaningful and B) it can't be that huge a loser even in BB/100 vs a bad player who plays faceup poker. I think you'd see this occur with regulars around here in even 10/20 and 20/40 games. merryber and I got to see attack-mode Jesse8888 in a Bellagio 10/20, and I think the show continued up to 20/40. People playing 1/5 or 1/10th their "real stakes" tend to splash around.

We can't really know. The biggest thing is about the advice he's giving you. Does it sound a lot like what BigBadBabar and others are telling you? If so, your friend is helping your poker game and who cares if he beats 4/8 on a cruise. If his advice is strange "you've got to know the spots" and "poker is a feel game" stuff, probably not.

If you sat next to jon_locke on the cruise, I you'd see some hands with aggression that would confuse you. Thus, judging your friend on one hand where he mashed the raise button might not be productive.

I sense a cloud of BS around this guy.

"Lifetime, making well over 5 figures"... this statement is puzzling. Over 10 years, making say 50K works out to 5K a year. If he's playing full time... that's horrible.

"Walk in a room and make $600"... this does not jibe with the lifetime numbers.

"Playing the players vs cards; tells"... Zachary Elwood, author of the most recent book on poker tells, bluntly states that tells play a very small part of making money in poker. Tells are often inaccurate. Even if you have a good tell, the information may not lead to any change in your line. Basic fundamentals, hand reading, range analysis are the keys to poker. Tells are only a supplement. Those who focus on tells tend to be BS artists. --Adjustments based on player reads is a different animal that your friend doesn't seem to be talking about.

"Hates limit hold em because they always chase"... Seriously only fish say this. He sounds like he has no understanding of where the EV in LHE comes from.

Though to be fair, plenty of decent or even good NL players are LHE fish and would say exactly that. Generally, agree with your points. It is also hard to get through the filter of 3rd hand info. Like if DeathDonkey told you a guy was really good at 27TD and quoted a few notable things, you'd be pretty certain that DD's judgement was good and that the selected quotes/plays would highlight him as expert. If I told you a guy was a TD genius, you couldn't trust my judgement and the examples I picked might convince you of the opposite.

great post last 2

I've been having fun going back to posts of mine from 2 to 4 years ago and evaluating them in the light of my improved overall understanding of the game. This one in particular stuck with me.

My friend is strictly a recreational player - he plays on average maybe 15 times a year. I don't know exactly how much his wins exceed his losses over his poker career, but I feel fairly safe saying it's at least 30K and probably closer to 50K. I know he's binked at least 3 tournaments, one for 4K and the other two for 1K each. He once had a session in Vegas where there were 3 maniacs at his table going all in every hand and he ended up with 2.7K at the end of the night - that was at a 1/2 table. I've seen him at least triple his buyin at 1/2 or 1/3 several sessions in a row. There was one time he took his mom to Vegas, told her "Whatever I win at the casino tonight is our vacation budget", and proceeded to win 2k that night.

Evaluating his play in light of my improved understanding, I think he's a TAG. When he has a hand he is NOT afraid to shovel money into the pot. I've seen him get AA all in pre and get called by QQ. I've seen him get AA in on a 932r flop and have the villain turn over A9. He'll flop a boat, get it in and get called by trips. He'll flop 2 pair and get called by an overpair.

He's also willing to make a move when he thinks he has a read. I once saw him limp 88 from UTG. UTG+1 raised to 5BB and got 2 callers, then he 3-bet to 30BB. Only UTG+1 called, he c-bet 2/3 of the pot (I think the flop was J74 but I'm not sure - I just remember thinking that AK/AQ/KQ-type hands would fold to a big c-bet) and UTG+1 folded. He told me afterward that he felt like he had built an image as a tight player and played the players. Personally I don't think he understands that when he raises to 30BB when there's 15BB in the pot, if everybody folds 66%+ of the time he profits in the long run, or when he c-bets 2/3 of the pot if the villain folds 60%+ of the time it's profitable - I think he just plays by feel.

Obviously he doesn't ALWAYS win. I saw him play a hand at a 1/3 table where UTG raised to $15, he 3-bet to $45 with JJ, BTN, BB and UTG all called, and BB donked $150 on an 832 flop. I would have folded KK there much less JJ but he went all in, and sure enough, BB had the snowmen and they held up. Another day I stopped by his table where a hand was in progress where it looked like he c-bet from MP, got called by the BTN and BB check-raised big. The flop was K87. He showed me his cards - KQ. I'd have folded that too, but he went all in and the BB flipped over 87 which held up.

One thing that's interesting to look back on now is a couple years ago he went on a 6BI downswing and I was so concerned that I was talking to his wife behind his back about getting him gambling counseling. Nowadays I understand that when you have 60 to 100 buyins at 2/5 in your bankroll, a 6BI downswing at 1/2 and 1/3 is peanuts.

Now let's talk about LHE. He is a TERRIBLE LHE player. I don't think he understands at all where edges come from in LHE. He gives me TERRIBLE advice at LHE tables - he actually tells me not to raise AK and AQ, and tells me not to bet the river unless I have the nuts (even when I have an AA overpair on a reasonably dry board against a station!) I think he tries to play LHE like an NL player. One time I saw him 4-bet J9o from the SB. I can only guess he was trying to create an aggressive image and run over the table, but that doesn't work at a table full of SSHE stations.

He still, to this day, tells me to give up "that LHE crap" and get back into NL. I think he doesn't understand how poorly rolled I am. He's won so much over the course of his life that he can sit down at a 1/3 table and go all in with no hesitation or remorse. He can take 2 or 3 buyins to the casino and not be fazed if he loses all 3 of them. I can only take ONE $200 buyin to the casino, and if I lose it I have to endure a lecture from the wife! If I went on a 6BI downswing she'd probably divorce me! So naturally, no NL for me - I'll play my NL and PLO online where a 6BI downswing just means I have to go to McDonald's for dinner instead of Outback Steakhouse.

OK I think I've typed enough. Hope readers found it entertaining.

Sounds to me like your friend has a lot of fun at the table, which is a good thing imo. A little over aggression may hurt your winrate a bit. However I think that it takes a lot of over aggression to make a solid postflop player unprofitable particularly in low rake games.

He loves to play. That much is clear.

Overaggression - you mean preflop overaggression can be compensated for with superior postflop play? Agreed, but surely there's a limit and 4-betting J9o from the SB is WAY past it, yes?

Depends on how often he does it. Once upon a time nyrugby 3 bet my open with J8o but it takes more than once to make you unprofitable.

Once upon a time nyrugby bet a K as a bluff on a AJx-J-J board against me and then called a raise for value.

Nothing to do with this hand, but it was funny (sorry dude ).

Was that on Merge?

This was NOT sent from my Galaxy S5. It came from the heart and was telepathically transmitted. Seriously, if one line in a post annoys you you need to get a life.