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Old 05-18-2012, 11:51 AM   #1
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the merits of check/calling

10/20 9 players

villain in this hand is an older gentlemen. he's not really loose, but not tight either. he likes to limp/3bet with AA, KK, and sometimes QQ. his pf raising range is something like A9o-AKo, A7s-AKs, KTo-KQo, KTs-KQs, QTo, QJo, QTs, QJs, JTo, JTs, T9s, QQ, JJ. i believe he limps with TT-. i think that he's likely to barrel off hu with all of his hands that whiff, and will sometimes accidentally value bet AK on the river thinking he's betting to get a better hand to fold.

preflop: [1.5SB] hero is BB. hero has AQ (9players)
fold, fold, fold, fold, villain raises (HJ), fold, fold, fold, hero calls (BB)

flop: [4SB] 753 (hu)
hero checks, villain bets, hero calls(?)
vs. villain's perceived range i can often k/r for value here. i felt like since he is capable of barreling off with worse i could take a passive line and get him to put in bets with a worse hand.

turn: [3BB] 6 (hu)
hero checks, villain bets, hero calls

river: [5BB] T (hu)
hero checks, villain bets, hero...

my plan was to just k/c down ui since villain's perceived range doesn't hit the flop/turn very hard and i feel like he'll barrel off with worse often enough to justify a passive line. once in a while he'll have AK, JJ, QQ and i get owned. does my plan have any merit, or should i just k/r the flop for value and go from there?
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Old 05-18-2012, 12:27 PM   #2
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Re: the merits of check/calling

I reraise preflop.

As played I probably k/r flop. Lead turn.

If it goes k/r/3! I call and re-eval turn.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:03 PM   #3
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Re: the merits of check/calling

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Originally Posted by Hbtn View Post
I reraise preflop.

As played I probably k/r flop. Lead turn.

If it goes k/r/3! I call and re-eval turn.
i'm currently just calling my entire range hu in the BB.

you didn't really answer my question. i know i can k/r the flop and bet the turn. is there any merit to taking a passive line versus a villain that will likely barrel off with worse and may b/f the flop with a large percentage of his perceived range?
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:10 PM   #4
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Re: the merits of check/calling

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i'm currently just calling my entire range hu in the BB.

you didn't really answer my question. i know i can k/r the flop and bet the turn. is there any merit to taking a passive line versus a villain that will likely barrel off with worse and may b/f the flop with a large percentage of his perceived range?
Well the short answer would probably be yes. Although giving him a free draw with hands you are ahead of doesn't seem optimal to me. I guess we would need some sort of perceived percentage of the time that you believe he 3 barrels with air.

My question is why are you considering folding the river if you decide to take this line? Are you behind his range here over 85% of the time?

Last edited by Hbtn; 05-18-2012 at 01:16 PM.
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:18 PM   #5
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Re: the merits of check/calling

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i'm currently just calling my entire range hu in the BB.
Also, why?
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Old 05-18-2012, 01:35 PM   #6
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Re: the merits of check/calling

Rodeo,
I'm curious to see your findings from experimenting with calling your entire BB range. Please check back in.

As to hand, if you think he barrels with his full range, it seems fine.
A flop k/r, turn lead let's him off the hook for 1.5 less BBs.
Giving "free" cards to his 6 outs isn't a huge concern in this pot.
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:33 PM   #7
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Re: the merits of check/calling

If he 3 barrels with the entire range you put him on (Including AA and KK) you are good just over 47% of the time.

If I include all pocket pairs you are good just over 37%.

Villain would have to 3 barrel less than 30% of his air for this not to be a profitable call if you include all pocket pairs and he 3 barrels all pairs plus.

If you only include AA and KK then he would have to 3 barrel less than 20% of his air assuming he 3 barrels all pairs plus for this not to be a profitable call.
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Old 05-18-2012, 02:58 PM   #8
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Re: the merits of check/calling

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Originally Posted by BeakWetter View Post
Rodeo,
I'm curious to see your findings from experimenting with calling your entire BB range. Please check back in.

As to hand, if you think he barrels with his full range, it seems fine.
A flop k/r, turn lead let's him off the hook for 1.5 less BBs.
Giving "free" cards to his 6 outs isn't a huge concern in this pot.
I think calling your entire range hu out of the BB is pretty standard at this point. People have been taking that line for longer than I've been playing poker (3 years). The standard post flop line is to k/r favorable flops for value vs. an opponent who is likely to cbet 100% of his range hu. As to why I'll have to get back to you because they just called my name to get in the game and I'm on my phone.
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Old 05-18-2012, 03:55 PM   #9
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if your read is right, I like the calldown. If you raise, you create a worse hands fold better hands call problem. (Although a TURN x/r or donk could get some pairs to fold.)

More generally, I realize people love calling and x/r'ing flops from the blinds, but this hand really demonstrates how villain dependent that line is.
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Old 05-18-2012, 04:25 PM   #10
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Re: the merits of check/calling

pretty standard call down imo. most any player will bluff with some of their range here... but more importantly the player described probably isn't value betting very thin, so it supports a call down even more.
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Old 05-18-2012, 09:59 PM   #11
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Re: the merits of check/calling

Any thought to check-raising the turn and representing a four for the straight? Probably not really likely that he'd fold, but crossed my mind when I was reading through hand.
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Old 05-18-2012, 11:05 PM   #12
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Re: the merits of check/calling

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Originally Posted by kalahari View Post
Any thought to check-raising the turn and representing a four for the straight? Probably not really likely that he'd fold, but crossed my mind when I was reading through hand.
Don't bluff with hands that have showdown value. Just don't.
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Old 05-19-2012, 10:27 AM   #13
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Re: the merits of check/calling

Thanks, Alan. Never thought of that before but you're right.
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Old 05-19-2012, 02:31 PM   #14
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Re: the merits of check/calling

Well, actually bluffing is a math problem. It depends on whether you can fold enough hands you lose to out of his range to justify the odds the pot lays you on the bluff.

If you can, though, it can be correct to turn a hand with SD value into a bluff.
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Old 05-19-2012, 08:48 PM   #15
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Against a wide enough range that barrels the turn often, a turn k/r could be for value (given the drawy board), not as a bluff. I'd rather get in the 2 bets on the turn for the cases when the scare card comes. On a dry board, I prefer the turn k/c.

Against observant or agressive villians, 3 betting the BB with a tight range probably makes less money than getting the money in on the big streets.
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