You may be right. I am still struggling with this concept. I did see a DC vid where Hero 3-bet bluffed turn drawn based on the concept.

I would urge players not to assume that you can bluff just because you are card dead.

How can this be a bluff when you can't fold to a 3bet?

That is an anomaly: a hand that is at the top of folding range but becomes pot-odds callable when 3-bet by opponent.

how is it pot-odds-callable? what price are you getting after he 3bets the turn and how many outs do you give yourself?

If he 3-bets, there are 7BB in the pot and I may have up to 10 outs.

But nonetheless the anomaly is still possible, correct?

what do you think his range is when he 3bets you? "up to 10 outs" is way too fuzzy here imo

Good point. I probably have closer to 4 outs with his 3-bet so folding would be probably right.

It would be nice to know what position the limper was in

however you should sometimes go out of your way to raise if the small blind is the type to fold some of the time. this is more often the case when the blind has put in only1/3 of a bet to call rather than 1/2 or 2/3 of a bet.

raising with your better high card hands (A9+ KT+,pairs) forces this blind who may have a very weak hand to commit another full bet or fold. since you have position on him you would like that he continue to put in money w/ trash and many will. this is often a win win situation for you if your hand range compares well with the open limping range of the original limper. as you can create a significant dead money situation and or induce a player with a weak hand vs your apparent range to put many more bets into the pot that it is originally worth.

being second to act you should bet many flops for an array of reasons. paired ones are good esp if you are know for betting out your good hands and will often 3 bet with them. you can also lead to set up a bluff on another street should you get the chance. other synthetic betting scenarios can show a profit here as well. another good thing is if you can middle the original limper he will be forced to play out of relative position and thereby he may be playing more predictably.

my opinion raise pre bet the flop if checked to and be prepared to play creatively on the turn / river because by raising pre you have made the pot larger. however be willing to fold if you get played back strongly by an out of position player when in a multiway pot late.

as played I wouldn't consider your line bad but it is sort of out of place for someone checking pre. but since both Ts and 8s and T* is in your apparent range you might get away with it given the player. However since he himself is creative player (or fancies himself as one) he may expect you to be as well and go ahead and call you down w/ almost anything. which works in your favor in you get there on the river.

limp was from MP

some Q's that went thru my mind were
1) is QJ good enuf to raise
2) is QJstrong enuf to call down as bluff catcher

This is a spew. I k/f flop.

A MP limp makes it more player dependent than say a later pos limp but yeah with the sb just calling you want to look for a good reason to raise.
plus some SB love to lead bluff at paired boards so calling and getting in a riase later will bluff them off some hands that beat you

all this being true how the heck can you c/r if the villain is in the SB?

Solid advice. I learned the hard way.

Bluffing is better when running good. There will alwayse be one donkey that is willing to make a hero call when your card dead they just dont buy it.

Bluffing may well be slightly better when running good. Certainly the more fishy players may very well say "he always has it" and make a hero fold.

In addition, though, this is one of those things where the human element of live poker is really pretty important to understand. In other words, bluffing is a mathematical problem. To put it bluntly, you bluff when you have enough fold equity against the villain or villains' range to justify the odds you are getting on the bluff based on the pot size. So if there are 10 bets in the pot, you bluff if you have a better than 10 percent chance of inducing a fold.

That math doesn't change when you are card dead. (Indeed, as you note, it can get a little worse because when you are running bad people may call you a little more giving you less fold equity.) What changes is that the desire to win a pot and/or boredom may make a player more willing to bluff without correct pot odds.

(Note: it is POSSIBLE to end up in situations where being card dead can increase your fold equity a bit. If you haven't played a pot in 3 hours and then open with T9s on the button, you may get something that ought to call you to fold, especially if the BB has no experience playing against you. But by the same token, if your opponent does have something or make something, he or she may play it way ahead/way behind if he or she puts you a tight range, which can make multi-street bluffs expensive.)

So that's why we have to be honest with ourselves and make sure that when we are card dead, we don't increase our bluffing frequency into situations where we don't have enough fold equity against the villain's range to justify it. It seems weak to just keep folding rather than trying to take down a pot, but you can't suck blood from a stone either.

Depending on how wide the first limper is and what part of his range is "beheaded" (that is, he would have raised better), I'd also consider raising pre.

As played, if you're going to continue, you should c/r the flop rather than the turn against most stabby villains. And if he's wide enough to 2-barrel air, then he's probably wide enough to 3-barrel air and you should call down rather than try and rebluff.