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| Small Stakes Limit Discussions about small stakes Texas Hold'em (from 2/4 to around 15/30) |
07-26-2012, 04:00 AM
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#1
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: somewhere in middle America
Posts: 754
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Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
The maniac has been at the table about an hour. No other history.
He has raised/3! pre every hand but one or two. C-bet 100%. C-3! often. Bet/raise turn often. I've seen him do this both with a decent hand and with total air (like 73o-high air), but he doesn't do it every time and I haven't picked out any pattern to it.
Hero is UTG+1 with A  T
UTG folds, Hero raises, folds to maniac in MP2 who 3!, folds to Hero who caps, maniac calls
Flop (9 SB): J  T  9
Hero bets, maniac raises, Hero 3!, maniac caps
Turn (8.5 BB): 9
Hero bets, maniac raises, Hero calls
River (12.5 BB): 4
Hero checks, maniac bets, Hero calls
If this thread doesn't get closed for want of barnyard animal sounds, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
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07-26-2012, 08:44 AM
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#2
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old hand
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: F U FTP, where's my $$$ at
Posts: 1,578
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovenstein
The maniac has been at the table about an hour. No other history.
He has raised/3! pre every hand but one or two. C-bet 100%. C-3! often. Bet/raise turn often. I've seen him do this both with a decent hand and with total air (like 73o-high air), but he doesn't do it every time and I haven't picked out any pattern to it.
Hero is UTG+1 with A  T
UTG folds, Hero raises, folds to maniac in MP2 who 3!, folds to Hero who caps, maniac calls
Flop (9 SB): J  T  9
Hero bets, maniac raises, Hero 3!, maniac caps
Turn (8.5 BB): 9
Hero bets, maniac raises, Hero calls
River (12.5 BB): 4
Hero checks, maniac bets, Hero calls
If this thread doesn't get closed for want of barnyard animal sounds, I'd appreciate your thoughts.
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I would not have capped OOP, but called his 3! and planned to check-raise good flops and call down most of the rest. As played I would have called down from his flop raise as he seems liikely to bet the turn and river with his entire range.
Last edited by shuinthehouse; 07-26-2012 at 08:44 AM.
Reason: moo
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07-26-2012, 10:18 AM
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#3
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adept
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 15 miles to the love shack.
Posts: 1,199
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
I like it, but I also like the idea of flatting the 3 bet preflop so we can check call our way to victory when we miss. I think implied bluff catching odds(ibco) more than make up the missed preflop value.
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07-26-2012, 11:46 AM
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#4
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Pooh-Bah
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: coffee
Posts: 3,612
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Some maniacs have an "oops! he's got it, I fold" mode and you should have some read on the types of situations and board where he gives up.
You do want to get in there and mix it up with an otherwise marginal hand that is going to be best at showdown a large % of the time. On one hand, your 4-bet might cause him to slow down since not many sane people in ordinary situations cap anything other than big pairs and AK. Otoh, you'll surely continue to get action from him in future hands.
Regarding postflop play, he doesn't seem like the type to take a free card, so you can probably check-call your way to showdown after the flop cap.
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07-26-2012, 11:58 AM
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#5
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adept
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,093
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
I think the cap preflop is fine. Maniacs like this either a) don't know your range is now stronger or b) care even if they know. Honestly, we should probably be capping our whole PFR range in this spot anyways.
As played, I probably Bet/C the flop & C/R good turns. As Man of means has said, villain isn't going to take many free cards and our equity can change a lot depending on the turn.
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07-26-2012, 04:57 PM
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#6
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: somewhere in middle America
Posts: 754
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide
Honestly, we should probably be capping our whole PFR range in this spot anyways.
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This is what I was thinking pf. His range is literally ATC which we have crushed with anything I would raise from UTG+1 in this particular game (ballpark let's say 77+,A9s+,KQs,ATo+,KQo, we're at 68%).
I like the point about us being able to k/c when we miss. But can't we do that even if we cap? We have an overwhelming edge at this point. And this guy is going to barrel a lot of the time anyway. Idk, I'm just not really sure the pf cap would affect this guy much, if at all. But it might.
Does being oop matter enough to pass up a near-guaranteed profitable cap? I know capping oop can be a sticky proposition, but does that apply when his range is this well-defined?
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07-26-2012, 05:08 PM
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#7
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: somewhere in middle America
Posts: 754
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Man of Means
Regarding postflop play, he doesn't seem like the type to take a free card, so you can probably check-call your way to showdown after the flop cap.
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He checked a few turns, but bet/raised most.
Can someone explain a little more of the theory behind why we want to k/c turn and river? At most we get 2 BB that way, and those couple times he checks behind, we give him a free chance to draw. K/r or b/c turn and k/c river can yield 3 BB. I bet turn because I thought I was probably still ahead and didn't want to risk him checking behind.
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07-27-2012, 12:38 AM
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#8
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adept
Join Date: May 2012
Location: 15 miles to the love shack.
Posts: 1,199
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovenstein
I like the point about us being able to k/c when we miss. But can't we do that even if we cap?
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It takes a really really maniacal player to float or raise the flop and fire the turn and river drawing dead with something like 54, but he'll do that often if we flat preflop. That said, I think op's line is good without a better read, straight value with a made hand, no free cards, etc.
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07-27-2012, 12:42 AM
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#9
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adept
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: 128 area
Posts: 912
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Don't cap flop once he 3!'s. Even the craziest maniacs will slow down facing hyper aggression. Unless this guy has some crazy spew in his range here, like 76o
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07-27-2012, 11:59 AM
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#10
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adept
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,093
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovenstein
Can someone explain a little more of the theory behind why we want to k/c turn and river? At most we get 2 BB that way, and those couple times he checks behind, we give him a free chance to draw. K/r or b/c turn and k/c river can yield 3 BB. I bet turn because I thought I was probably still ahead and didn't want to risk him checking behind.
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The benefits of just Ch/Calling is we keep all his bluffs in his range (which is presumably a lot of his range.) If we bet the turn he may just call the turn & fold river with his bluffs or he may just fold the turn right there. So when bet we get a little extra value from part of his value range, but we lose much more against all his bluff's he'd be willing to barrel off.
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07-31-2012, 10:11 AM
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#11
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: somewhere in middle America
Posts: 754
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide
The benefits of just Ch/Calling is we keep all his bluffs in his range (which is presumably a lot of his range.) If we bet the turn he may just call the turn & fold river with his bluffs or he may just fold the turn right there. So when bet we get a little extra value from part of his value range, but we lose much more against all his bluff's he'd be willing to barrel off.
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What if he checks behind ott? Would you still check/call river hoping he fires?
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07-31-2012, 11:46 AM
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#12
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adept
Join Date: Jan 2007
Posts: 1,093
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Groovenstein
What if he checks behind ott? Would you still check/call river hoping he fires?
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Depends on the river, a scary river I would Ch/Call. A brick I would probably just bet. I think when players like this check behind on the turn, they generally have "a lil something". I feel like if they just had air and wanted to bluff they would have bet the turn.
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07-31-2012, 01:04 PM
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#13
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Carpal \'Tunnel
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Making God facepalm.
Posts: 16,904
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
I fold preflop but whatever. Once you raise preflop and the maniac 3bets, it sounds like you have a very profitable cap, so that's what you must do. However, once that flop comes you should just check call down ui. In fact, on ANY flop if you don't hit an ace or a ten (or a straight obv), you should be planning on check calling down ui. Betting the flop in this hand is a clear mistake imo. That's not how you play a marginal showdown hand vs a maniac. Overall I hate the way you played this hand.
Last edited by ILOVEPOKER929; 07-31-2012 at 01:10 PM.
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07-31-2012, 01:31 PM
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#14
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: somewhere in middle America
Posts: 754
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide
Depends on the river, a scary river I would Ch/Call. A brick I would probably just bet. I think when players like this check behind on the turn, they generally have "a lil something". I feel like if they just had air and wanted to bluff they would have bet the turn.
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Makes sense to me.
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07-31-2012, 01:39 PM
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#15
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adept
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: somewhere in middle America
Posts: 754
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Re: Live 3/6 - line check me v. the maniac
Quote:
Originally Posted by ILOVEPOKER929
I fold preflop but whatever.
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It's right on the edge for me. I fold A9o here.
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In fact, on ANY flop if you don't hit an ace or a ten (or a straight obv), you should be planning on check calling down ui.
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Seems to be the consensus. Good to know for those times I don't hit the flop.
Quote:
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Betting the flop in this hand is a clear mistake imo. That's not how you play a marginal showdown hand vs a maniac. Overall I hate the way you played this hand.
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I flopped a T. I don't understand how 2nd pair, top kicker is marginal against this player?
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