Sorry this is getting off topic, but I think its really important.

Some edges don't exist for some players at their current skill level (or because of the rake structure).

I'm talking about myself here, and not trying to tell anyone else how they should play.

There are a few (VERY FEW) players that I play with that it is +EV for them to chase every last razor thin wisp of value (within the confines of the rake and game structure). I know that their win rate is higher because they are able to do so and that I should be aspiring to this level of play.

With this in mind I go into certain situations knowing that it might not be +EV for me at this moment, but that hopefully I can learn how to exploit these situations by trying (and failing) repeatedly.

I also frequently skip these situations because, well, I'm comfortable being a .70 BB winner over the last 1000 hours and get timid even though I know this is the only way to get better and win more.

Everyone should always be trying to get better and to increase their winrate and chasing any and all small edges is the only way to do this.

Can you be a winning player without forcing yourself to do so? Probably. Can you maximize your expectation without doing so? Of course not.

this isn't directed solely at you, but i do see you posting about it a ton. i don't understand this desire to avoid edges. limit holdem is all about pushing edges. there are a couple big obvious ones but lots of them are pretty small but do add up. if your desire is to avoid variance because you're on a short roll or something, fine, i can understand that. but if you're reasonably bankrolled for a game then not playing as well as you possibly can (whether this means working on your game or just starting to do things you already know are correct but for whatever reason don't do like raising jts otb after 5 limpers) is silly. you might as well just rip up dollar bills every now and then, or fives, or whatever bill denomination is appropriate for the stakes you're playing.

Just to clarify I'm not talking about obvious plays like that.

I'm talking about things like identifying weak limpers who you have good fold equity against and opening up your ISO-raise range to almost ATC when the oppurtunity arises, or things like constructing better ranges for tough players who you know are stealing your blinds but you're still scared to play bottom pair against, because, well, they're tough players.

These situations do arise in SSLHE games. Hopefully you spend more time playing big multiway pots against clueless opponents, but that isn't ALWAYS the case.

sure, so basically acting upon +EV situations instead of passing them up.

Some +EV situations are easier and more obvious than others.

Trying to take advantage of them and doing it incorrectly can be more -EV than passing them up is.

okay, but one can work on one's game if one is so inclined, yes? this increases the +EV-spot-identification-and-taking-advantage-of ability

OK just to exemplify. and this is not an new idea I think David S wrote about it on one of his books.

say you pursue and edge or try out a concept that will garner you a edge that equates to $1 in the game you play. and you do pretty good and get it right 1/2 the time. however when you get it wrong it costs you both a turn bet and a river bet 80% of the time . and two turn bets an a river bet 15% of the time you get it wrong and %5 of the time you get it wrong it costs you 4 big bets.

so out of 100 times you make this play you win and extra $50 but the other 50 times you play 40 of them cost you $16, 7.5 of them cost you $24 and 2.5 cost you $32 so every time you make this play it costs you roughly $8.50

so this play is costing you $900 the times you get it wrong and your winning $50 the times you get it right.

now this is fine if the play only comes up once every 100,000 hands. but thin edges by definition come up a lot more often than fat edges. lets say an extra 1% of the hands you would be dealt are those of a thin edge varity. now your chasing of thin edges is wrecking you.

say you play in a super fast game that deals you 100 hands an hour and you usually make $8 and hour in it playing 10 hands and hour. that 11th hand is costing you 8.50. yourv'e gone from being a pretty good winner to a suck ass loser just by adding that one hand.

ok lets look at another example OK lets say you get it right a entire 95% of the time and you earn a dollar every single time. when you get it wrong 5% of the time it costs you $5 . now lets say you are making and extra $70. over the 100 times you make it. however the rake is costing you $4 every time you win and nothing every time you lose

so now the 100 times you make the play you win $.70 but the rake costs you $4 the 95% you win. OUCH that hurts , again this is OK of it only comes along every 100,000 hands but again by definition thin edges come along much more often than that. even if you get it right a full 100% of the time the rake not only kills any profit you gain but ends up costing you money.

so theoretically you getting better by developing these plays but realistically you are getting worse because your not winning more money. and money is how we keep score in poker.

so in this case you can be rich or you can be right and me personally I would rather be a bit richer and perhaps not as right as often.

YMMV

Tim, the only case you've built here is that you think "pushing small edges" means "making losing plays." Nobody is suggesting that you should be making plays that are, overall, losers. Sometimes, because the edge is small compared to the bets being wagered, these plays *feel* like losers. But nobody is saying that theoretical losers, like the ones you contrive above, should be part of your game.

That is the most misinformed/confused post I've seen on pushing edges.

The ev of a play that wins $50 half the time and loses $900 the other half is very negative. We want to push +EV plays, not negative -$425 ev plays.

Wow, just wow.

Your posts make you sound like a typical Vegas nit timmer. I'm looking forward to munching on your chips next week. OM NOM NOM!

I love how you preface your inacurate post about pushing edges with an appeal to Sklansky's authority. What you describe is a huge leak -- thus, if BBB had this huge leak it is costing him money. Since he's talking about taking thin +EV spots and being willing to perhaps increase variance to pursue that EV, your example doesn't apply.

Attributing your example to this guy seems mean.


Perhaps I could direct you to BigBadBabar's page on deucescracked.com? He's done several excellent video series and is one of the best poker players I know. Thus when a really good pro says this:
perhaps he could appeal to himself as an authority?

Let's just go through this monstrosity and point out all the things that are laughable.

1. You're only winning $1 (0.25 BB, per the later equation of 4 BB and $16) every time you're right. If this is the case, I recommend finding a game in which your opponents are obliged to call an amount equal to what you are betting.

2. If you have a 50% chance of +$1, 40% chance of -$8, 7.5% chance of -$12, and 2.5% chance of going -$16, this is not a thin edge. It is not an edge at all. If you think "thin" means "negative," then you don't even understand what BBB+others are talking about. Thin means positive but small.

3. The very fact that you think that if you push a thin edge you might lose 3 BB on the big streets is proof positive you don't understand bet/fold vs. bet/call. If you're pushing a thin edge vs. passives, you're not bet/calling. Hence, you never lose more than 2 BB.

4. The fact that you think you may lose 4 (!!) BB in a thin spot is absurdly hilarious, because not only does it mean you don't get bet/folding, but you're actually 3-betting or raising somewhere along the line. What the ****?

5. Nah, I quit. I was going to continue with the "95% of the time you win $1 but you lose $4 in rake ouch" bit but I decided I don't care enough.

meh

last I heard they have a 4-8 with a max rake $2 at the wynn. I avoid the venetian because the owner is against online poker and suggest you consider the same

The Wynn doesn't offer a $2 rake anymore. It's $4 now.

The 4/8 rake is usually maxed out at $4, and they don't take the 4th dollar until the pot has 70-80 dollars in it.

There isn't enough 8/16 for there to be 8/16 grinders out here. There are only 2 casinos that have 8/16 and it probably runs around 3-4 times a month at the most in those places. Also, if you're expecting to play 8/16 for at least 8 hours someplace in Vegas, you're probably dreaming.

Wynn seldom has 4/8 running any more.