[ low content, results oriented conclusions from a clueless noob that has just reached the 1000 hour mark of live 2/4; potentially useful for other noobs on what to expect playing live small stakes ]


Background:

This clueless noob always enjoyed playing poker with friends plus the occasional 7 card stud game in Las Vegas; seemed to do alright. Considered playing Texas Hold'em, read a beginners book and was amazed at how ignorant I was regarding the fundamentals of poker. Ran off to the casino in early 2006 with my new found knowledge ready to crush the game. Got off to a bit of a rough start (see stats below), then found SSHE and 2+2 forums which helped a lot. Still plugging away.


The Stats:

B&M 2/4
10 players (usually, unless the table plays shorthanded for a bit)
$3 maximum rake
$1 bad beat jackpot drop
$1 tip (usually)

1004.3 hours
$1482 = $1.48/hr = 0.37 BB/hr
(including one bad beat table share: $1764 = $1.76/hr = 0.44 BB/hr)

203 sessions
101 winning sessions
100 losing sessions
2 break-even sessions

Average session time: 5 hours

Biggest session win: $372 (93 BB)
Biggest session loss: $275 (69 BB)

Number of sessions win >= $100 (25 BB): 34 (17%)
Number of sessions lose >= $100 (25 BB): 31 (15%)

The ups and downs of the whole time period:

-$1202 (-300 BB) in 136.7 hours = -2.2 BB/hr
$1716 (429 BB) in 111.1 hours = 3.9 BB/hr
-$924 (-231 BB) in 47.8 hours = -4.8 BB/hr
$974 (244 BB) in 74.2 hours = 3.3 BB/hr
-$581 (-145 BB) in 98.9 hours = -1.5 BB/hr
1784 (446 BB) in 284.4 hours = 1.6 BB/hr
-$1081 (-270 BB) in 162.3 hours = -1.7 BB/hr
796 (199 BB) in 89 hours = 2.2 BB/hr


Conclusions:

These are directed mostly at fellow noobs and are based purely on my results oriented stats from above. Take them for what they are worth.

- you are not going to win 2 BB/hour (the typical "good" winrate that is tossed around here, much too liberally in my opinion)

- you are not going to win 3 out of every 4 sessions or something similar to that

- you will have large streaks of times where you will win lots; you will have large streaks of times where you will lose lots; the suggestion of playing with at least a 300 BB bankroll (i.e. $1200 for 2/4) if you can't afford to go broke is a bare minimum in my opinion

- you are about as likely to win $100 in a session as you are to lose $100 in a session and that will happen at least a third of the time

- 100 hours of live poker ain't nothing so don't jump to conclusions about your game; hell, 1000 hours of live poker ain't nothing...

- you will not make any "extra spending money" playing live 2/4; at best, you might recover the amount you pay for food/drinks while at the table

- playing live 2/4 for anything other than entertainment purposes is ludicrous


Final Thoughts:

I'd like to thank all the 2+2 posters in this small stakes forum for helping my game along these first couple of years. Your advice, feedback and patience was really appreciated! In the new year I'm going to continue working on eliminating the obvious stupid plays from my game. Maybe if I build up my bankroll enough I'll consider taking some shots at that big 4/8 game!

Merry Christmas, good luck at the tables and see you in the New Year!

GcluelessnoobG

GG-your win rate for 2/4 is pretty good considering all the rake and tips taken out. Kudos.

You must be the best live 2/4 ever!!!

im telling you when you moe up to 4/8 you are going to wonder why you spent so much time at 2/4 but at leat you will; haev a lot of time in and the transition will be great for you.

Great point about the bankroll requirements. Been tossingthat around alot lately and I think that 300 BBs is a great minimum but I am thinking that Kit's idea of winning 500 bbs before one moves up is becoming more valid lately with the swings I have been having both up and down.

Good job on keeping the live stats.

A question, am I reading it right when I would say that without your bad beat JP table share, you would be a losing player (of $282) for the year?

Also, are the up's and down's you listed chronological, from beginning to end of the year?

I was you 2 yrs. ago but I didn't keep my stats that closely then. Moving up seems to have improved my 2/4 play. I had 83 hrs. of 2/4 this year with a 2.6BB/hr. winrate which I agree is unsustainable. My other game winrates are nowhere near that level. If I combine all my games, JP's, and winrates, I come in at about .7BB/hr.overall.

But if you play 3/6 or 4/8 for a while, trust me, that will improve your 2/4 game. Its like playing with golfer's whose handicaps are lower than yours. You may not beat them, but your game will improve.

To me, the real point of 2/4, especially with the rake bump this year, is to give you the game confidence to play bigger. IMO, many players move up too fast. But your 1000 hrs. similar to my hours - 980 YTD - probably gives you a stronger foundation than you expect. Try taking one rack shots at higher games. Perversely, you may actually find your winrate going up!

There is a lot of local culture variance between casinos, so YMMV, but my move to 3/6 was easy. 4/8 at Commerce can just go nuts and that took some getting used to this year. At least at Commerce, the passives (easiest meat) go upstairs to 2/4, the tighties stay out of the way of the 4/8 lunatics, so you can find the tightest games of the 3 levels @ 3/6 (I did hit one table for 110BB+ @ 3/6 this year!) and 4/8 @ Commerce is a deep pool with lots of players and styles but you need to be ready to bang and accept HIGH VARIANCE on a day to day basis. My standard deviation figures confirm that my 4/8 tables are higher variance than my other games.

I believe that you will do better than you expect @ 3/6 right away, but watch out for local differences in games higher than that.

Good job in honestly reporting your results and impressions.

Good luck in your shooting at the 4/8 table G. From what I've seen of your posts, I find it hard to believe you couldn't crush the 6/12 I play at regularly.

I'll let you know when I hit 1000 live hours at 6/12 or higher (I don't track my hours at 3/6). I'm averaging 40-50 a month, so it probably won't be in 2008

2bb/hour is ridiculous, that's like 7BB/100. Who is doing that for more than 30,000 hands???

For Christmas, give yourself a present of one session of 4-8. You can play there, and you won't be paying over one big bet out of each pot you win.

In fact, just as support, I am going to give me one session of poker at a higher level than I usually play at.

Good luck to you, good luck to me.

Thanks for this thread.

"2bb/hour is ridiculous, that's like 7BB/100. Who is doing that for more than 30,000 hands???"

Srsly.

G- here is short little bit from a larger paragraph from Sklansky that I found here on one of the other forums somewhere this year.


"If you can afford it, play in higher games than you are used to if for no other reason than it will help your game. If things work out you just may move up the stakes ladder for good"



Pretty basic but solid advice.

Wootage!

Clarification: I'm up $1482 plus a $282 table share = up $1764 overall. And yes, the ups and downs are listed in chronological order (starting off with the 300 BB downswing, although admittedly a lot of those hours were pre 2+2 and SSHE). BTW, the 1000 hours is my grand total since I started playing in Feb 2006 (and not year to date).

My particular casino (only a couple of blocks from where I live) is fairly small with only 8 poker tables. Usually one 2/4 game and one 4/8 game going, maybe two of each if really busy. There are no other limit games and the rest of the tables are no-limit games or tournaments. Maybe I will reward myself with a game or two at 4/8 but it is a kill game so a bad quick downswing could be brutal to the bankroll. Plus I'm at a disadvantage as I have no reads on the regulars.

Happy New Year!

If you have 2k+ you really need to sit in the 4-8 game, your WR is going to go up so dramatically man.

Better rake
bigger stake
same player ability


I always tell people playing in smaller games that they should be playing in the biggest game they can afford to. You definitely can afford to sit in the 4-8, good luck man, congrats on all the success.

Epic bump!

Hi! I'm gobbledygeek! I used to post here up here!

I've just completed 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL! Yes, NL! The DARK SIDE!

Come check out my "A clueless noob reaches 1000 hours of live 1/3 NL" in the Live Low-Stakes NL forum!

I think everyone who plays small stakes live limit will find my small stakes NL results very interesting.



Hope everyone is well!

Gilikeexclamationmarks!G

OMGOMGOMG, I remember this thread. I can't wait to hear about your fun with the game of evil.

GG sighting!

I should probably post more in NL.

Here's the link, I believe. Did they actually stick this milestone post?

Nice. Ya the time I won $1500 in 4 hours of 1/2 NL made me realize there's a bit of money to be won there. I also averaged over $60/hour multitabling .25/.50 NL online over a ~10000 hand sample (lol sample size). I think if online poker ever returns to the US I'm probably going to switch to NL or PLO full time. Small stakes were still easy money when the US went down.

If there's a 15/30 or above at a casino I'm going to play LHE though, since it's way more fun live. If it were smaller though I'd sit 1/3 or 2/5 NL for sure.

I just wanna know if gg is gonna post itt again.

He's a LLNL reg, you can always get your GG fix there.

Not gonna happen.

Results at low limit NL is extremely dependent on the lineup, ime. The presence of one or two highly skilled players has a much greater effect than it does on a LHE game.

* waves at calli *

You switch between games calli, or just limit yourself to limit?

* waves at Dougie *

The NL mod stickied it in the Best of LLSNL thread; those expecting great Saturday Night Live moments will be disappointed.

GinavandownbytheriverG

Ya, this can't be emphasized enough. If your main reason for playing poker is for fun (and that should really be pretty much your only reason if you're playing the low low stake limit games), then stick to limit, as it is a much more funner version of the game. god I miss capping the pot on the flop in a very multiway pot with more than my fair share of equity.

Gmeaklycheck/callingdrawsontheflopinNLG

Leo. Come. Come to the Dark Side.

GwereallyneedsomeonetohostkickasspartiesdownthereG

Definitely this. In fact, my whole seat selection in a NL game revolves around the other good/aggro/tricky deepstack players at the table, which far outweighs having position on the fish, imo. And if there is as many as two other good deepstack players at the table, it might be time for a table change if they aren't staying out of our way (or we feel very uncomfortable getting into tricky deepstack situations with them, which I admit is outside my comfort zone).

Gknowswhereallmymoneycomesfromandwhocanpotentially takeitallG

I donk around with 1/2 while I wait for LHE.