I think the button's range should be much much wider on the low end (i.e. he will limp a bunch more ****) and more narrow on the top end (i.e. he will raise ATs, so take that out).

Even with that, 32.6% eq 4 ways we can approximate? So raising gets 8 bets in there, in which we have 2.88 bets worth of share, in which we invest 2?

Sure we're out of position. We also have a good chunk of FE. If everyone misses, we get to win a lot. We get to fold out BB's equity share a bunch (he'll fold total rags), or get value from his T8o / 73s that will just call given the price. Plus, people who check their post are usually bad, and people who limp behind a post check are terrible: you're really afraid of them punishing you IP?

+1

Btw CO might fold too !
He posted.

Because we are OOP , maximising our equity is difficult postflop.
So mind as well get our value while we have and while they will pay .
If not, why should we raise AKo...

Letting in weak hand cheaply so they can extract full value on turn and river with raise because they have position is bad imo.
So you need to raise has often possible pf for the time they fold the flop it cost them lot of money often.

Big card like KQo are easy to play posflop multiway OOP and they get the most value vs bad pf and on the flop .

Not trying to pick nits, just trying to understand, but I get:
.326 * 8 = 2.61 worth, in which we invest 2.

Sarge

C'mon, don't get pouty! He's right. Post one of your nice gifs, I always enjoy them.

I think this is a terrible way to look at stoving equity. You should do the stove, and then you should evaluate the situation based on the other stuff. Otherwise, we're left with "I feel like KQo isn't an auto-raise". If a reasonable stove says we have 50% equity 4 ways, it is pretty unlikely that position and initiative OOP are bad enough to overcome our huge edge. If we come up with 25.4% equity 4 ways, we're 100% going to say "however our position sucks and I don't want the betting lead on 70% of flops, so I'll pass this edge due to circumstance".
This is an important point, your stove forgets to cap the ranges of the limping players. The CO posted and didn't raise -- his had is worse than random. He doesn't have AA or KK or even 88, he doesn't get ATs a random amount. All of the hands that dominate KQ are gone.

As you stoved it.
Equity Win Tie
CO 19.45% 18.56% 0.90% { 66-22, A9s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q2s, J9s-J2s, T8s-T2s, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K2o, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }
BU 26.72% 25.30% 1.42% { 88-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K7s, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, ATo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }
SB 32.97% 31.87% 1.09% { KQo }
BB 20.86% 19.84% 1.02% { random }

I'd also point out that your BTN range is A-heavy and has a lot of high cards. This guy limped the BTN, so maybe. OTOH, I'd guess people have watched enough WPT to know to raise A's. I'd broaden out his range more like this.

Equity Win Tie
CO 20.06% 19.11% 0.96% { 66-22, A9s-A2s, K9s-K2s, Q9s-Q2s, J9s-J2s, T8s-T2s, 92s+, 82s+, 72s+, 62s+, 52s+, 42s+, 32s, ATo-A2o, KJo-K2o, Q2o+, J2o+, T2o+, 92o+, 82o+, 72o+, 62o+, 52o+, 42o+, 32o }
BU 21.82% 20.79% 1.03% { 55-22, K5s-K2s, Q7s-Q3s, J7s-J4s, T8s-T5s, 95s+, 85s+, 75s+, 64s+, 54s, 43s, A5o-A2o, K8o-K3o, Q9o-Q8o, J9o-J8o, T7o+, 97o+, 86o+, 76o, 65o }
SB 36.39% 35.53% 0.86% { KQo }
BB 21.73% 20.65% 1.08% { random }
Now you're talking 36.4% equity 4 ways, which is a very big edge to pass. You also are in a pot with a guy who was in for free who forgot to steal the pot (he hates his hand), a guy who limped after that guy (he dislikes his hand), and the big blind who hasn't looked. KQo is a monster.

This is online, honestly the BTN's range could be far worse than this -- online 8/16 players are likely far more LAG than live ones.

How does a 30% return on your investment sound? Remember, we can also win without a showdown.

I'm not trying to pick nits either, but we do not invest two bets.

I did lazy arithmetic. My bad.

Point is, Doug's stove is likely far more indicative of their ranges. Passing up on 36% equity due to being out of position is looney tunes. And we haven't even mentioned the times we get the hand down to HU (BB and CO fold). Not common, but it happens.

Positional disadvantage matters, but much more against actually competent players. 2 of the three players in this hand have already done something fishy before the action is even on us preflop. And I really hate missing value versus fish.

OK... I guess I don't know much about how Bovada 8/16 plays.

In the 6/12 game I frequent, it's very common for people to limp with premium hands (especially AK) so I can't assume they have decapitated ranges when they limp.

The other thing is that the small blind is 2 chips out of the 3-chip small bet, so I only have to pay 1/3rd of a small bet to limp, compared with 1 and 1/3rd a small bet if I raise.

Given those factors, it seems to me that it makes a lot less sense to raise from the SB.

Thank you.

Thank-you

Again thank you-

I still believe that we're not paying attention to our position enough, but I'll concede that I'm focusing on it to much. KQ (as any hand) is worth more in late position as opposed to the SB. So the ability to the ability to extract that equity edge needs to be accounted for somehow. DougL spoke to it as "the other stuff" and how much edge do we need or not need to hit the raise button.

Thank you everyone.

Sarge

Preflop is fine in general but I don't know how this site plays, would probably raise here in live game as limpers are super wide. Don't like betting flop at all, kinda think you are setting yourself up to triple barrel and try to fold an ace. As played call river and expect to lose a lot to Ax but catch enough bluffs to be worth it; as others have mentioned good spot to bluff, just think your average player has it pretty often here.

We should never be triple barreling trying to fold out an ace - that will never work. We bet flop because its better than checking. Sometimes we are ahead, and don't want to give 3 people a free card. If we are behind, we don't lose that much more by betting out.

In what situations are we ahead and afraid of a free card? Pretty sure we want the free card here. Maybe weaker Ks or like QT but four handed we are behind here a ton and mostly folding out hands that have **** equity against us. Like you said, an ace is never folding (which is why you can value bet a J but also turn it into a bluff if your opponent is thinking about your hand) so the best thing we get from betting is folding out low pps, which is not insignificant but we can probably bet on later street and achieve the same result while offering them worse odds to continue. You're betting into 3 people and having to fold to a raise rather than check/calling and observing action after you.

Not raising pre is horrible

pf is usually and always a snap-raise for me in this situation...

not raising seems slightly to semi-nitty

Oops. I didn't read carefully.

This is limit... and you should definitely call in this bloated pot to hit your GS and miniscule other outs.

Only reason to check KQ here is if you suspect one the villains will spaz barrel 2 or 3 times, and you intend to call down. Its more likely all villains are passive twits, and the superior play is to cbet and get them to fold their live 6 outs getting nine to one. We gain little from checking and observing.

FE? What does this mean?

Hey Bob, it stands for "fold equity."

I like preflop. I'd check the flop. I like the rest of the hand and if I chop with KTo, I'd try to think of something smart to say in the chatbox. At the moment, I'm drawing a blank so I'd probably say "nhwpetcetc."

Raise river.

Reasoning for checking flop?

I like betting more, but not by a lot. Remember this isn't an ordinary limp limp situation where bad players ranges may be A-rag heavy. This is a CO post and a button limp. I think we're best here enough to bet.

I think drawing for free to a strong pair or broadway is better than betting for the combo semibluff + protection, but I don't bluff in 4+ way pots without a solid 8+ outs as a general rule. How often do you think you're winning unimproved when you bet? Are you happy when people call?

I'm not happy when I'm called, but I'm very unhappy when it gets checked through.

My default thinking is that the field is full of passive twits. We're often ahead and no one behind will bluff. When ahead, it's a big mistake to let people draw to 6 outs for free. When behind, we usually commit the same number of bets -- maybe 1 extra small bet. No one bluffs, so we don't gain anything from checking to induce.

I think this is a misconception that stems from the book "Theory of Poker." Of course if we knew that our opponents have undercards that will fold, then we should bet, but we don't know that. What are the chances that they all have six clean outs against our KQ while nobody else has us beat? I think it's pretty slim. A lot of the time, we're drawing. I think getting a free card when behind, which will happen a lot here, is a great result.

Then it should follow that the only time you're happy is when they all fold. This will only happen rarely in my experience. You're setting yourself up to be unhappy while I'm totally content getting a free card or drawing for one small bet.