Bovada 8/16 (so pretty much readless) and I'm in the sb w KQo;

CO posts, BTN limps, Hero raises, BB, CO, and BTN call

Flop: Ah Jh Jd

Hero cbets, BB calls, CO folds, BTN calls

Turn: 9s

Hero checks, BB checks, BTN checks

River: A

Hero checks, BB bets, BTN folds, Hero calls

All post flop action seems debatable. I haven't played much flhe other than mix games and so I'm rusty.

I'd call also and expect to win. Which means I'm crushed. Seriously, though, BB's river bet screams bluff and it's not a bad one considering the action.

Standard.

This is like the third nut hand in your range right (KK/QQ)? I'd call and feel fine.

Seems good to me, except your title says "limped pot" when it was a raised one.

Standard.

/dissenting opinion/

I know it was a post from CO, followed by a limp from the button - but I'm not super thrilled with the PF raise with KQo from the SB. The BB is likely to tag along for one bet, plus the CO and Button, and your OOP with an "OK" hand. That being said - i don't want the thread to get dragged into PF discussion if that wasn't your intent.

So now were faced with betting into 3 people, on a board with 2 face cards, one's an ace, with a flush draw --- so no - I guess I'm not really happy with a bet here, More often than not, your just helping to build a pot for someone else. I'd likely check and call 1 with my gutshot, as well have close to correct odds, to say nothing as implied odds.

Turn - meh

River - I'm not fond of the call multiway - if the hand started heads up i'd call, but BB bets into two people (yes i know one was a check) - I'm likely to give him credit for more than just a bluff.

/end dissenting opinion/

Sarge

^ +1. I was going to say exactly what Sarge said, but now I don't have to type it out.

Not raising PF is losing a lot of money. KQo is more than ok hand - it's top 10%.

I actually don't love the flop bet either, I thought we were basically addressing the river call. And while I wouldn't raise KQo pf from the SB very often, in this exact spot I think it is fine, though marginal.

I'm not sure you considering position/situation enough here.

Sure KQo is a good hand, but its not an autoraise in every spot - simply because it falls under a top 10% hand. Hand ranking charts are taken in a vacuum and, while important, lose some of their value if you don't incorporate position, players, etc... Like anything its a situational raise - for example I'd raise 88 against one limper, but against a table full of callers - a call is going to show more profit - same hand - different situations - all the while, its position on a hand chart remains static.

Lets say it went MP posts, CO limps - but now I'm on the button with KQo - I'd advocate the raise here, with position.

I'm not sure were ever losing "alot of money" either by not raising KQo out of the SB. It would be interesting to see some stats on that - THEN - compare what money you may (or may not be loosing) and stack it up against the variance you create by raising in this spot.

Sarge

I feel like we have the nuts on the river. I can't imagine folding. I almost want to value bet.

What hands that you beat are going to call you? I can't imagine Q-high ever calling here- Ever.

Checking to induce a bluff, then calling is why the OP check/called

Sarge

It's a good hand, but we're out of position in the SB and we know we're going to have at least two callers. Here we got three callers.

And while KQo is a good hand, it's more flop-dependent than most good hands. Most of the time you're going to miss the flop, and when an A comes (as it did here), there's a really good chance you're behind. I prefer to wait and see what the flop looks like in this situation.

You are against a cut off POST and a button limp, kq is a monster.

Sarge and MA, indulge us and put together a stove for the preflop decision.

I don't really think a stove is terribly helpful here because it doesn't tell you anything about the disadvantages of being out of position with this hand. That's my primary concern here -- being out of position with multiple players behind me.

CO raises, BTN flats. I sometimes flat KQo in the SB even though I'm a significant equity favorite because of position. After a CO post and BTN limp, not raising KQo is criminal and what bad 4-8 fish do.

It'll put a number on how big you think the disadvantage is.

But before you do it, tell us how big an equity edge you'd call with here. 30% four ways? 40% three ways? Where's your line?

OK, fine. Goodbye then.

Sure, I'm game, I'll dig into it - like you said though, before I do I put a guess. And to be clear I'm going to be stoving KQo against 2 random hands and one limper, with Hero is the SB correct? I'm assuming that the BB is calling one bet here PF.

So I'm willing to concede that we'll have an equity edge of greater than .25, - So i'll stab and say its close to 30%, maybe even as high as 33%.

You mention calling here, but I assume you meant why not raise? correct.

Now then, where did I leave my Poker Stove.

Sarge

I think assuming the BB will call with any two cards here is incorrect.

It wasn't just the river call, but also the flop cbet and turn check I was pondering. I think preflop is not worth discussing.

Also I wonder if the flop was rainbow and the turn didn't bring a FD, would that change anyone's opinion on the river call?

OK then I'll start bluffing with one of the many counterfeited hands I have

equity win tie pots won pots tied

Hand 0: 32.261% 31.09% 01.17% 14605676 548950.83 { KQo }

Hand 1: 20.705% 19.72% 00.99% 9262411 463686.17 { random }

Hand 2: 26.325% 24.94% 01.39% 11714404 651616.50 { 88-22, ATs-A2s, KJs-K7s, Q9s+, J9s+, T9s, 98s, 87s, 76s, 65s, 54s, 43s, ATo-A2o, K9o+, QTo+, JTo }

Hand 3: 20.709% 19.72% 00.99% 9264368 463871.67 { random }
-----

So I was close.

Obviously the variables here are what I assigned the button, and if(?) the BB truly comes along - (maybe 7:1 isn't what it used to be?)

So I've got a 7% equity edge over the field, and 6% over the button correct? Is that enough to compensate for playing out of position for the hand that it warrants a raise? PS doesn't account for that when coming up with Wins (at least my version doesn't)

I suppose in the traditional sense, any edge is an edge you push? but again, its situational I believe - as I mentioned earlier, even managing your own variance can be a factor.

Sarge