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02-03-2017 , 02:11 AM

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

It was a friend of mine. 8/16 HK @ CP

folded to MP who opens for a raise, and folded to SB hero who 3-whacks with KK. MP 4 bets, hero calls.

T high uncoordinated rainbow. He cr (questionable), and is re-raised, and he calls down to see AA. I think he should cc down after 4-bet, beat QQ, lose to AA in a pot that's already big enough to see a showdown, and be happy with the result.

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02-03-2017 , 02:25 AM

King Spew

Just average

Join Date: Apr 2006 Posts: 15,220

So what you are saying is that this particular villain only 4Bets PF IP AA, KK, QQ?

Last edited by King Spew; 02-03-2017 at 02:26 AM. Reason: and Hero has a spotless image

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02-03-2017 , 02:37 AM

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Spew

So what you are saying is that this particular villain only 4Bets PF IP AA, KK, QQ?

That's how it was described to me. He's solid winner. I think it's close between check-raising, and then calling down as he did. I told him he's still up against QQ, and JJ often enough. He considered folding at some point, and I told him that you can't get rid of it. He could maybe get rid of it against a very solid player, in which case I'd be tempted to go 5 pre, and then look for a fold if still facing resistance after leading the flop.

Should've mentioned the 5-bet cap pre-flop @ CP. The 5-bet cap really changes things. It's very rare to go 4 with less than this knowing you may face 5, and unlimited raises hu.

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 02-03-2017 at 03:01 AM.

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02-03-2017 , 03:49 AM

bipolarbearclaw

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 340

Any solid winner who 4-bets here would also do it with hands such as - some of his ace-kings, suited AQ/AJ, probably JJ, maybe TT-88 sometimes.

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02-03-2017 , 03:54 AM

bipolarbearclaw

journeyman

Join Date: Jun 2012 Posts: 340

If I suspected I was against an unbalanced premium 4 betting range, I would either play it as you suggest or possibly bet flop and call down if raised. Most people will fire all three streets for you with any hand that beats AK. If villain checks back turn, they're 100% calling river IMO. If you think its a 4-bet range that includes AK and 99, you could also consider C/R a Q or J turn to get value from worse, while hoping AA just calls you down fearing you hit a set.

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02-03-2017 , 04:05 AM

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by bipolarbearclaw

Any solid winner who 4-bets here would also do it with hands such as - some of his ace-kings, suited AQ/AJ, probably JJ, maybe TT-88 sometimes.

I think he's kind've on the nitty side. I told him in our convo that I lean heavily on making it unclear what I have at any time using home cooked game theory, and will occasionally mix-it-up, and 5 bit with AKs, and that kind of thing. It's more necessary at mid stakes, but to be honest, CP is filled with very passive predictable players, so I think you can make a healthy profit while being on the nitty side, though not optimal.

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02-03-2017 , 12:49 PM

mn_trader

grinder

Join Date: Jun 2008 Posts: 516

Why didn't he 5 bet, smooth call the 6 bet (assuming a reraise) and call down from there? By 5 betting preflop, you are pretty much playing your hands face up in AA vs KK hands and can get some CR value if you spike the K.

The result would be the same, but people rarely 6 bet less than AA. Many hands will get 4 bet or 5 bet AK, AA, AK, QQ sometimes JJ or AQ depending on the players.

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02-03-2017 , 02:10 PM

jdr0317

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jan 2012 Posts: 8,231

Quote:

Originally Posted by mn_trader

I have no idea why we'd want to accomplish this.

As far as the correct play with KK here, it really depends on who OP is playing. Some players it's not enough action, others it's way too much.

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02-03-2017 , 03:41 PM

DougL

Too helpful for this post

Join Date: Sep 2002 Posts: 21,810

Quote:

Originally Posted by leavesofliberty

lean heavily on making it unclear what I have at any time using home cooked game theory, and will occasionally mix-it-up, and 5 bit with AKs, and that kind of thing

How does this work? Always 5 bet AA. Sometimes 5 bet KK. Sometimes 5 bet AKs? How do you decide? What does it accomplish?

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02-03-2017 , 05:24 PM

#10

Old Ghost

enthusiast

Join Date: Apr 2016 Posts: 57

I would always flat pre. I guess you would know if the player is passive enough to take the line you suggest. In west coast 8-16 games I find ppl will 4 bet pre and 3b the flop pretty wide Hu in position just to get the last raise in. I am more likely to 4b flop and lead turn, but as has been said its player/game dependent.

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02-03-2017 , 07:45 PM

#11

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Quote:

Originally Posted by DougL

How does this work? Always 5 bet AA. Sometimes 5 bet KK. Sometimes 5 bet AKs? How do you decide? What does it accomplish?

I occasionally play weak hands strong, and strong hands weak. If I feel like my opponent is at the very bottom of their range, I am willing to 5 it to keep thm off balance and calling me down with weak hands, and occasionally getting shoved off. For example, I raised in a 20/40 w AA OTB, SB is nitty and 3's it. Seemed liked scared money, so I just call for deception. He had KK. This kind of deception prevents opponents from getting full value. No two hands are the same, so there is always a deciding factor.

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02-03-2017 , 10:23 PM

#12

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

I've got some examples from today, playing live, 7 handed.

1. I raise UTG cold call, guy just lost the last pot three bets, folds to me, I 4!,call, player enquires about the cap which is usually an act. AA remains quiet most of the time. He does look like a frwsh face, so it may me legit, but usually not AA. I call, call

Qh5s4s, check, check, bet, call, call

8d, check, check, bet, call, call
Ac river, check, check check.

Spoiler:

2. I am in the bb. HJ, very loose raises,folds, cold call in sb,3 bets by me, he fours it, fold, I five it. Call.

Ad7d3d

Check bet call

7h

Check bet call

2c

Check bet call

Hand reveal

Spoiler:

More to come.

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02-03-2017 , 10:50 PM

#13

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

3. Okay, I'm in the sb. 7 handed early limp, same nutzo raises in mp, cold call otb, I 3!, bb call, all call.

742

I bet, call, early limper folds, nutzo raises. Otb folds, I 3!, call, call. Nutzo looks tied to his hand. Third guy has a likely 7 in my mind, guy who won hand #1. 6 on the turn, bet, call, call, 2 river, bet, call, call.

Spoiler:

Last edited by leavesofliberty; 02-03-2017 at 10:55 PM.

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02-03-2017 , 11:03 PM

#14

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

4. Very next hand. I am otb. Early limp, fold nutzo raises, fold, I 3! Folded to nutzo who 4! I reach for five, but I think he's beat up by now. He seemed like he was out of fight after losing several hands. He may actuall have something. I call

AsKh3c

Check bet call

Brick

Check bet call

Brick

Check bet call

Spoiler:

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02-03-2017 , 11:41 PM

#15

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

5. Early raise, new player. Raises utg two folds, 8 players total. Hero calls. Call behind. Bb calls.

Kc7c3h

Check check, hero bets, all fold, AdKd

Spoiler:

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02-04-2017 , 12:31 AM

#16

leavesofliberty

Carpal \'Tunnel

Join Date: Jul 2010 Posts: 6,296

Anyway, my philosophy is that people buy the cereal for the free toy inside as well as the cereal. All hands look similar to the untrained eye, but are not. So, I am able to randomize without giving up much if anything. They play back at me because, I'm playful.

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