With J9s two guys minimum will have lots of eqiuty against you. Your street is bad, your two pair bad. You need something like A-9-9 to get the lone opp's several chips. The flush comes - action has died. If action rises you have problems, you cant 3bet etc because there are lots of better flushes
P.S. sorry,cant give you clear idea just some feelings.

maybe i play jokerstars too much... but 6 people in pot = omaha.

They say j9s is very well hidden (and you can win big!). Maybe. 100 years ago.
You bet your pair of aces and the guys must tell you their answers. With ace on the flop it's hard to be creative. So they put you on an ace, you put 1-2 ops on...a draw, ace etc.

I disagree with just about every thing in that post.


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I was hoping someone would ask/answer that question. So if OP held AQo which we agree loses some of its value multiway, is it still a raise, or now a call?

AQo is still a raise for the same reason TT is a raise, pure value

AQo (and likely ATo) is a dominating hand that can make nut straights. AQo benefits from the fact that even its side card can make top pair that will remain top pair to the river -- hit a Q and there's only one overcard you dislike.
Here's the thing that people hate in hands, but due to it being a limit game you have to live with: being a money favorite doesn't mean you always get to win $. Preflop, you have 20% equity in a 6 way pot. That's winning money. You flop it and you now are like a 40%-50% favorite 3-4 ways. Now, every $ that goes in is great. You still lose most of the time. Money goes in great, but you don't win. It is easier to make top pair than it is a flush, so it happens more often. Top pair both loses a lot multiway (even most of the time) and is a money winner. You can lose a hand 60% of the time and profit wildly.

Making flushes is more fun, because you win way more often... especially with big flushes. Doesn't mean just hitting the biggest pair with the biggest kicker loses money.

Good. Thought so. And I do get the concept of losing >50% but still profiting. Like hitting your nut inside straight on the river after calling the turn with pot offering 12:1 or more. Mostly, I lose, but when I win that one in 11.5, I more than make up for all the lost ones.

Think of it this way PF

The guy next to you has 96o. Now he has to pay two bets with garbage. You just won money by raising AQo there PF.


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One prevailing thing I see a lot of "old school" regs do wrong is overlimp a spot like this with AQo, reasoning that they aren't a favorite versus a big field and that "no one is going out if I raise".

Yes, in an ideal world, when 5 people limp to us on the button and we raise AQo, everyone folds and we win all the limps and blinds. Obviously this has never happened in the history of FL, but that doesn't mean it's incorrect to raise. If someone is going to play 96o, then it's better in the long run to make it more costly for him when you have a good starting hand, even if it means you lose more when you do lose.

In large multiway pots, you should take the # of players in and divide it into 100%. If your hand's equity against them is better, raise.

TheHip prefers overlimping a hand like ATo, which is fine. Just as long as it's played on the button facing 4 limps, really.

I thing your missing the point of those "old school".
They do not say it is bad or not profitable to raise pf, i think they are suggesting that not raising pf to exploit them more post flop is more profitable.
Which imo might possible.

i do not raising AJo on the BU vs 5 player for example.
AJs yes of course.

This is the reason I don't raise ATo.

if the flop comes T73r and someone to my right bets, I actually have a shot of protecting my hand by raising, by forcing people to incorrectly cold call 2 with a gut shot or 57 or whatever garbage that should be folding.

I think around the blurry lines there isn't a wrong/right answer.

On the button after 6 limpers I'm folding A9o, so snap raising ATo doesn't make sense

AQo, value is too high not to raise, esp since we have the button.

That was always my understanding, too. I think the modern school of thought is that you are indeed giving up some post flop profitability, but the trade-off is worth it because you gain more (in total) by raising pre. Many of those old-school books, like HPFAP, were written assuming competent / sane opponents. People who would limp with big offsuit cards from early position. The modern $4/8 droolers were not envisioned as the target opponents. Most of the classic books by S&M, Ciaffone, etc. are envisioning opponents that are sane.

I am confused by the raise pre-flop. I like to draw for one-bet. Your high card strength is not very good. Am I mistaken?

J9s had enough overall equity vs 6 random hands. And you have the button. You might get to see the turn for free.




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They're not six random hands. And it isn't free if you pay for the flop bet before the flop. You're paying 2 bets before the flop on a drawing hand. This is a bad idea. If there is a bet on the flop, then that's 3 small bets to see the turn. If there isn't, that's still 2. If you did not raise, you may get to the turn for only 1 small bet. It's not like the whole table is mesmerized by your raise OTB.

J9 is dominated by

AJ,KJ,QJ,JT, (the big pocket pairs can be safely ignored, rarely JJ,TT,99)
A9,K9,Q9

That's a 112 combos + 4 for the pocket pairs, 116. I can keep doing the math, but with the hands, I'm guessing it's like half the time or more that you're dominated.

The only reason to play this hand is for the straight, and flush potential. In which case you want to pay as little as possible to see the flop/turn. You do not want to pay extra when you have a drawing hand. And, you are not getting a free card. You're paying extra on average, and it isn't close. Raising looks like FPS. The correct play is to call.

I've already run the simulations that show that J9s has an equity advantage in these massive multiway spots where people are playing the kind of crap that leads to 5 limps before the BTN acts.

A minor consideration is that raising sometimes buys us a turn, which is nice when the board comes T62 w/ a spade.

Very interesting. I wouldn't have expected that.