4-8 LHE, 7-handed

Stacks: not really relevant because it's limit, but both players around $200

Reads: Villain is a mid-40s TAG 1-3 reg who occasionally plays 4-8 when the bad beat jackpot is high (currently over $240k.) Hero is TAG mid-30s who plays both 4-8 LHE and 1-3 NLH. Rest of table is loose- passive as usual.

Action: folds to hero in hijack. Hero raises with KcKh. Folds to villain in BB who 3bets to 12. H caps to 16, V calls.

Flop($28): AsTs9h
V bets H calls

Turn($36): AsTs9h-Th
V bets H calls

River ($52): AsTs9h-Th-7c
V bets H mucks face-up.
V shows QQ:banghead:

Note: I only turned my hand up because I showed it to the player next to me and I tend to adhere to the "show-one-show-all" policy.

Thoughts: I almost never fold on the river when I 4-bet pre then call the flop and turn, but this hand just seemed so cut-and-dry that I decided I'd just save my last bet... until I saw what he had! My question is this: was he value betting the river or bluffing? If he's bluffing, the only hand he's trying to fold out is exactly KK, but given the action, wouldn't he expect to be called a great majority of the time? If it's a value bet, what does he expect to get called by? Jacks?

You are right, he played his hand incorrectly for exactly the reasons you stated. As for your play, if you know the villain to be a good, mostly straightforward, but not excellent player it's OK to fold the turn here. Otherwise you should call down, though the way you played it is not horrible as long as you don't make a habit of it.

Don't cap PF (you're turning your hand face up as a monster)

Don't fold river.

Don't ever muck face up.

Don't post results.

Once you decide to call turn I think you need to call river also but folding turn is probably best at 4-8

Yeah probably either folding turn or calling river would have been better than calling the turn then folding on the river. But we only know that because we know his hand.

The more I think about this, the less likely it seems that he could be value betting OTR. What hands could I have that he could profitably bet for value? I honestly think the guy was just betting without thinking about it or really knowing why. It just happened to work out for him.

This.


Are you sure he's a TAG, not a TARD?
Possible he is a TAG puts you on JJ+ and is trying to pull of a TARD bluff.

no, any line that has you folding (unless he shows you a better hand) is bad. it has nothing to do with knowing his hand, and everything to do with basic ranges and pot odds.

yes lots of people just bet and don't know why. that's one of the reasons games are still good. another reason is people making hero folds and then showing them.

welcome to our forum and good luck.

I would say villain's play is consistent with both "4-8 tag" and tard.

I agree that he may not have thought about what hands you could have that he beats. But looking at it from his point of view, nothing ever happened to cause him to slow down.

Flop: Let’s get this over with. I’ll bet, he’ll raise if he has an ace, and I’ll fold if I’m smart.

Turn: Hmm, he doesn’t have an ace. I might be good here. Plus, checking would show weakness. I’ll bet again.

River: He doesn’t have an A or a T. Certainly not going to take my foot off the gas now!

nah, he just put you exactly on KK and tried to get you to fold it

Am I reading correctly? You went all that way and folded KK face up for 1 bet?

Either fold the turn or call down (given this river card, but folding the river is ok if a pukey card come sin.)

And for the love of Christ do not fold faceup here or anywhere else.

Yup.

OP, if you were going to fold this hand, fold the turn.

+1

chunks202, you made a couple mistakes in the hand. No problem. It happens.

One mistake that you didn't make was the PF cap. That's fine. You have position. You can't be re-raised. This makes capping lots of hands fine. Even if it turned your hand face up, it is a small stakes game and your opponent probably won't notice.

Once you have seen the turn card, not much is going to change. His range is big Aces and pocket pairs, so if you're ahead on the turn, you're usually ahead on the river...that's why we're saying either call down (decide you're ahead enough of the time) or fold the turn (decide there's little chance you can win)

One common situation where you might call turn, fold river is if you're drawing. Another is when you suspect villain either has you beat or is drawing, then the suspected draw comes in on the river.

Binary "he either has it, or doesn't" situations are not good candidates for calling the turn to "see what he does." Your opponents quickly learn not to stop betting.

Its 4-8. Play your hand if you're calling Flop/Turn throw the chips in.

To be fair, at some point you may know your local 4/8 customer well enough to know that he'd never bet river without TP or better. It takes a while to get sure enough to fold in a bloated pot, though. The typical assumed player in these limits is too loose and too passive. This TAG isn't that player and clearly either knows how to thin value bet (knowing you'd raise a better hand) or to turn a pair into a bluff (more of a NL play). Thus, you get away from loose/passive adjustments and just go to having enough hand to call off in a pot this size.

Have you considered raising the flop? Obviously the A is in his range but so are plenty of other hands, and imo most players will still represent the ace. This might get a check on the turn. As played call the river because the only hands that he is three betting then calling that beat you are AA, AK. With two kings in your hand an ace on the flop both are less likely

So the plan is to bluff our bluff catcher to get a free card from worse?

What I'm saying is he will represent the ace 100 percent of the time while not having all the time. Plus the only ace he can really be representing is AK which is unlikely considering we have 2 kings

And thus you put in a raise with KK at some point?

How can you possibly know he will "represent the ace" 100% of the time from a sample size of 1?

You have two kings right? You leveled yourself off the hand by capping preflop and assuming he was a ninja.

To be fair, villain was ninja.

FFF