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04-06-2015 , 09:03 AM
Hero has ~22k in chips and the stakes are 2000/4000. Play is currently 5 handed and the tournament is 7 handed. We are down to 3 tables/63 runners.

Hero raises UTG with QQ. Hero has played with the villain for quite some time now and has an extremely tight but aggressive image.

Folds to SB, a solid tight aggressive player, who calls. Villain covers and has been running well and playing well to boot.

I am thinking range of AT/AJ/AQ suited, AQo, KQ suited maybe, 66-TT. Slowplayed JJ+ possible.

Flop:

258

Villain checks. Hero bets. Villain raises. Hero calls.

I am now eliminating AQo, weighting more towards pairs and flush draws and of course the set of eights.

Turn:

4

Villain checks. Hero bets. Villain raises!

So he looks extremely strong here... can you lay down? Either way, why? Folding did cross my mind here.

I am now eliminating the flush draw overs, so that leaves probably 88-AA, and hard to imagine he would CR me twice with some of those...

Hero calls anyway for great justice.

River:

6

Hero has about 10k in chips left.

Villain checks! Hero checks.

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 04-06-2015 at 09:17 AM.
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04-06-2015 , 09:08 AM


Hero has his finger in his ear, the villain was the chap to my right on the final table. All credit to APAT for the photo.
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04-06-2015 , 09:12 AM
3b flop.
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04-06-2015 , 09:24 AM
One thing I didn't realise is that I have the Q which means we can eliminate KQs and AQs.

Equities.
Spoiler:

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
47,520 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 258
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QcQd63.23% 29,576945
AdJd, AdTd, 66, 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA36.77% 16,999945

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
2,024 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 2584
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QcQd61.26% 1,21844
66, 77, 88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA38.74% 76244

ProPokerTools Hold'em Simulation
1,496 trials (Exhaustive)
board: 2584
Hand Pot equity Wins Ties
QcQd54.01% 78644
88, 99, TT, JJ, QQ, KK, AA45.99% 66644

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 04-06-2015 at 09:29 AM.
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04-06-2015 , 11:46 AM
Knowing you got CR'd on turn may be affecting my answer, but in retrospect:

The 4h should not scare him at all. If he was trying to steal in case low flop missed you, he'd keep bluffing on turn, so CR looks very strong. But then, he also maybe is trying to sell a multilevel bluff. But who folds an over pair?

Yes, a flop 3! would have provided clarity.

And why not add more draws to the sim? Like T9s, AXs.

In pic, he looks like he's trying to hold in a monster like p88. Fold. :-)

Last edited by Bill Haywood; 04-06-2015 at 11:52 AM.
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04-06-2015 , 12:47 PM
The pic is later in the tourney. This hand took place far earlier.

Do you think a tight disciplined player calls a raise with T9s or small suited aces out of the small blind in almost any situation, never mind when another tight player raises UTG? I'm doubtful.
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04-06-2015 , 01:25 PM
ack, I analyzed him as BB. But I'd still 3! flop.
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04-06-2015 , 01:54 PM
in a tourney I would 3 bet flop, people donk check way more often (and rightly so) in tourneys and cash games, and plenty of scare cards will kill your action. like if he has 66-JJ he may check A and K turns.

Against the range you assigned him you have easiest turn 3 bet ever, but if you are asking what to do on turn, that range may not be correct, unless 88 and AA are the only 2 hands you think hell do it with.

I think his most likely hand is something like AdTd fwiw and
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04-06-2015 , 04:19 PM
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Hero has ~22k in chips and the stakes are 2000/4000. Play is currently 5 handed and the tournament is 7 handed. We are down to 3 tables/63 runners.

Hero raises UTG with QQ. Hero has played with the villain for quite some time now and has an extremely tight but aggressive image.

Folds to SB, a solid tight aggressive player, who calls. Villain covers and has been running well and playing well to boot.

I am thinking range of AT/AJ/AQ suited, AQo, KQ suited maybe, 66-TT. Slowplayed JJ+ possible.

Flop:

258

Villain checks. Hero bets. Villain raises. Hero calls.

I am now eliminating AQo, weighting more towards pairs and flush draws and of course the set of eights.

Turn:

4

Villain checks. Hero bets. Villain raises!

So he looks extremely strong here... can you lay down? Either way, why? Folding did cross my mind here.

I am now eliminating the flush draw overs, so that leaves probably 88-AA, and hard to imagine he would CR me twice with some of those...

Hero calls anyway for great justice.

River:

6

Hero has about 10k in chips left.

Villain checks! Hero checks.

Your post shows that you play really scared poker. Yes, he might have 88, but you do not need to emphasise that or weight that. It is more likely he has any other PP. Folding turn is absurd unless villain is a complete nit.

The range you assign villain is really tight: no ATs, KJs, discounted KQs. Also, solid/aggressive players generally don't cold call SB.
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04-06-2015 , 04:47 PM
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Originally Posted by phunkphish
Your post shows that you play really scared poker. Yes, he might have 88, but you do not need to emphasise that or weight that. It is more likely he has any other PP. Folding turn is absurd unless villain is a complete nit.

The range you assign villain is really tight: no ATs, KJs, discounted KQs. Also, solid/aggressive players generally don't cold call SB.
I am not afraid. I see it another way. If I play it too aggressively the villain may fold the hand I would rather he stayed in the hand with!
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04-06-2015 , 05:17 PM
Considering folding the turn is scared poker. An aggressive villain could be rebluffing you with a draw; he might also be a donkey and v-raising with worse. It is especially bad since this is a tournament and you will have a puny stack if you fold.
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04-06-2015 , 05:41 PM
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Originally Posted by wbatas
3b turn.
FYP.

Edit: actually turn is close between call and three bet. River is instabet.
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04-07-2015 , 12:31 AM
BTW I think he could've been adjusting to me by coldcalling SB (He may've 3b a PP out of the SB against another player) and the CRs probably came as a result of him seeing I don't like to check much when checked to.

I guess by aggressive i meant he doesn't ever limp in preflop and will steal when it's warranted. It may not have been the most accurate of descriptions because I rarely saw a showdown from him in any of the games.

Another guess about him was that he was probably a NLHE player foremost and wasn't particularly astute when it came to knowing the difference between that and limit and how best to play hands. So he might make some incorrect calls I suppose with small/mid pairs for set mining and stuff like that. But no evidence.

I also adjusted my play to him because normally in a limit game yes I would play my hand more aggressively. But I realise he knows I am a tight player so he will not be messing around with me too much because he knows it is not likely I will fold my hand.

Logically, IMO, to CR a player twice who has not played many hands at all, he'd have to have a big hand to be doing it for value. But given that I just flat flop, he may have cr'd turn with just 1 pair thinking i peeled his flop CR with overs. So I wasn't completely convinced I should fold my hand and that's why I didn't.

Another consideration was it was a tournament so I didn't want to go crazy with my hand, I am trying to save my bets where it is a marginal situation. I could be ahead, and if we look at numbers, perceived range and texture, I should be ahead, but it's maybe more important to conserve my stack in case I am not. If it was a cash game I would play harder. It's like it's more important to get through the hand and try and win something than to get the maximum chips.

Last edited by LUCIUS VARENUS; 04-07-2015 at 12:38 AM.
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04-07-2015 , 12:32 AM
Betting river instantly.

3 betting flop instantly.

Get the chips while you can in a tourney particularly
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04-07-2015 , 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by LUCIUS VARENUS
Another guess about him was that he was probably a NLHE player foremost and wasn't particularly astute when it came to knowing the difference between that and limit and how best to play hands. So he might make some incorrect calls I suppose with small/mid pairs for set mining and stuff like that. But no evidence.


Another consideration was it was a tournament so I didn't want to go crazy with my hand, I am trying to save my bets where it is a marginal situation. I could be ahead, and if we look at numbers, perceived range and texture, I should be ahead, but it's maybe more important to conserve my stack in case I am not.
So summarizing: you want to conserve your last 2 bets (of 5) and fold QQ on an 8 high board to find a better spot, and the main read on your opponent is that he could be a no limit player deep in an event where you are playing 5 types of limit poker, but he's likely set mining HU oop.

Barring half the field sitting with 1 bet in front of them, for the love of god, please don't fold. You might as well fold preflop!
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04-09-2015 , 05:54 AM
I'm not sure you can put a lot on him being an NLHE player - if so why play HORSE at Stratford, for a not cheap buy in {c $85-95} when there are tons on NLHE games around in all the casino's over here....(edit: OP and I are both English and had a discussion about where this took place in a diff thread as I may well go and play it some time)...

Given that - I would go with your original read that he probably knows what he's doing - although the cc out of the sb is a bit odd and looks like suited Ace type hand that he doesn't mind playing m/way (as BB is getting an insane price to peel)
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04-09-2015 , 11:46 PM
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Originally Posted by Judice555
I'm not sure you can put a lot on him being an NLHE player - if so why play HORSE at Stratford, for a not cheap buy in {c $85-95} when there are tons on NLHE games around in all the casino's over here....(edit: OP and I are both English and had a discussion about where this took place in a diff thread as I may well go and play it some time)...

Given that - I would go with your original read that he probably knows what he's doing - although the cc out of the sb is a bit odd and looks like suited Ace type hand that he doesn't mind playing m/way (as BB is getting an insane price to peel)
I think I remember seeing/hearing he played some other Hold'em events as part of the series. A lot of players in these APAT events play most of them because APAT has its own community and it's part of it to play a lot of the events.

He seemed quite competent at all the games.
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04-13-2015 , 02:52 PM
If this were a cash game, I would call the flop k/r with the intent of raising a turn bet. I bet the turn when checked to, and call the raise. When checked to on the river I bet/call.
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