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08-06-2015 , 07:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
Breaking even as a HU player is waaaay differet than breaking even as a FR player.

A huge part of the shorter time frame to beating FR is the assumption that villains are too loose and simply by playing tight you're gaining a huge edge. (This may not hold true across all 20/40 games especially places that don't run bigger games.) To that end, robotic preflop hand selection is key.

You might even adopt an absurdly robotic postflop strategy like the following and still break even.

1. Bet-call TP2K+, see SD regardless of action or board.
2. Check-call any 8-out draw+ regardless of action or board.
3. Fold anything less than TP.
This is absolutely true. Indeed, this is probably the absolute key insight to full ring small stakes limit poker. If you understand this, you understand where the money comes from and can be a winning player. If you don't understand this, and think that the route to profitability is something else (such as outplaying opponents, postflop play, pure luck, etc.), you are highly likely to suck at limit.

The absolute fundamental mistake of the vast majority of live players in 8 and 20 games in Southern California, for instance, is the failure to understand this. And that's why they lose and the players who win all care a lot about getting pre-flop right.
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08-06-2015 , 09:17 PM
3. is not a part of my game.
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08-06-2015 , 11:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by callipygian
Breaking even as a HU player is waaaay differet than breaking even as a FR player.
I find this comment intriguing. I'm gonna ramble about it:

4+ ways you pretty much gotta make the best hand to win. Sure, you might bet a strong draw on the flop and turn and end up against a player that you think might fold enough to make a bluff profitable on the river, but how often does that happen? Once ever 50 hours in a good loose game?

Contrast that with heads up, where both players have much wider ranges and these nothing vs nothing river situations come up much more often. Bluffing becomes a necessary part of the game because of this.
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08-06-2015 , 11:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
This is absolutely true. Indeed, this is probably the absolute key insight to full ring small stakes limit poker. If you understand this, you understand where the money comes from and can be a winning player. If you don't understand this, and think that the route to profitability is something else (such as outplaying opponents, postflop play, pure luck, etc.), you are highly likely to suck at limit.

The absolute fundamental mistake of the vast majority of live players in 8 and 20 games in Southern California, for instance, is the failure to understand this. And that's why they lose and the players who win all care a lot about getting pre-flop right.
Just want to add that this is also the key insight to mid/hi stakes full ring limit poker as well. I remember when I stared playing bigger limit games and was just a random person and pros would consistently 3 bet me with some pretty awful hands (to be fair I would prob assume I suck as wel and prob 3 bet some of those hands, but if a 25 year old white kid sits in your game and doesn't limp or cold call for 2 hours and opens UTG, you shouldn't 3 bet your 5-6s or K9s or whatever).

At the time I just remember thinking, I don't get what's going on here. Even if they are/were better than me they're not going to outplay me when my hands are that strong.
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08-06-2015 , 11:27 PM
Disagree. Bluffing doesn't become necessary. Adjusting to your opponent becomes necessary (which may involve bluffing).
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08-08-2015 , 03:47 PM
I bluff everybody heads up with the bottom of my range without a lot of history and a really good read. Bluffing is my standard, while not bluffing is an exploitive adjustment, but that's pretty much cus I never have anything.
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08-08-2015 , 09:47 PM
In my mind I see you with some 54s hand where you correctly c/r some combo draw on the turn and barrel off the river. Villain sheepishly calls and fastrolls 10 high, "I can't win, but you keep raising me and I have to know what you have". You? "Ten's good."
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08-09-2015 , 08:23 AM
lol, that definitely happens sometimes. A few weeks ago I was playing heads up online and was being particularly sticky against a seemingly standard tag that probably lurks here. I made a few King and Queen high calls on the river that were no good. It took a while, but I finally caught him bluffing. All it took was that one time catching him bluffing and he says "that's it, no more bluffing!" and he stayed true to his word for the rest of the match, which I thought was an excellent result for me.
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08-09-2015 , 10:26 AM
The flip side is playing live where you've got a villain on a texture where any time he's calling the turn he's calling the river. Add in the clearly true tell that he's got calling chips stacked up, what's your bluffing range?
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08-09-2015 , 10:43 AM
Tells change everything of course. The price of advertising in that spot becomes one big bet, which is clearly not worth it.

Back on Pokerstars I used to use this river formula against standard tags that would calldown too much on blanks and fold a lot on wet cards:

blank river: bet for value only and give up on bluffs.

wet river: bluff a ton and have a tight value range.

This is obviously exploitable, but it worked for a long time cus I had a slightly maniacal image. It takes a long time for river stats to converge, so they would see the 35%+ pfr and make their decisions based on that, which imo is a clear mistake.
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