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04-24-2015 , 04:41 PM
Every once in a while I go to my local B&N and treat it like a library. I've worked through the first two chapters and even though it's a little bit self-congratulatory, I'm going to try to finish it over the next few months.
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04-24-2015 , 05:48 PM
Saber guys think Jeter is an overrated defensive liability who is a sure fire first ballot Hall of Famer. A middle ground is possible!
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04-29-2015 , 05:20 PM
I've been reading "Advanced Limit Hold'em Strategy" by Barry Tanenbaum. I think it's a good book; however, I find it quite difficult.
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04-29-2015 , 10:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mntndrew
Saber guys think Jeter is an overrated defensive liability who is a sure fire first ballot Hall of Famer. A middle ground is possible!
Well I mean, when you find yourself in this company...
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05-28-2015 , 07:08 PM
I wanted to re-open this thread to state an opinion about Hold'Em Poker for Advanced Players by Sklansky et al.

I'm always nervous to sing this book's praises because BigBadBabar, a far more experienced and successful player than myself, is always insisting that it doesn't apply to today's games, and I don't want to be "that guy who always contradicts the expert".

But anyway.

I *finally* got all the way through the book - it took a long, long, long time because it's chocked cover-to-cover with difficult concepts. I'm sure I'm going to need to re-read it 3 or 4 more times at LEAST to truly master even half of the concepts in the book.

I simply cannot imagine that an intermediate LHE player would not be a better player after reading this book than he was before, if for no other reason than that the book absolutely *forces* the reader to PAY ATTENTION TO THE TABLE. The book is constantly saying, "If the villains are mostly passive do this, if there's an aggressive player behind you do this, if there's a tough player at the table, do this" etc.

If you're a multitabling nitbot online, or if you're playing live and you watch TV while you're not involved in a hand you're missing out on tons upon tons of value, and this book absolutely hammers that concept into your head.

I'm sorry my thoughts aren't 100% coherent right now, but the bottom line is I look at it like this:

- Hold 'Em Poker by Sklansky is for true LHE beginners who need to learn how to play, how to read the board and the most basic of strategies
- SSHE teaches you how to beat tables full of passive players who don't raise without 2 pair or better
- HEPFAP takes SSHE to the next level and teaches you how to make adjustments when there are non-passive players at the table, whether the non-passives are nits, tough players, maniacs, TAGs, LAGs etc. Also, whereas SSHE specializes in multi-way pots, HEPFAP gives more examples of what to when hero and only 1 or 2 other villains see the flop.

As far as whether or not HEPFAP applies to today's games, for midstakes and higher I could see that as being the case but for microstakes online as high as $1/$2 and live as high as $8/$16 there are definitely tables full of villains like those described in the book. Heck on Bovada you can sit down at a 6-max table and be against a passive, a nit, a maniac, a TAG and a slowplayer - if you don't pay attention you're dead, if you do pay attention you have a bookfull of advice on specific situations vs. specific villain types.

Hope that made any sense at all.
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05-28-2015 , 08:03 PM
The game has changed enormously since HEPFAP was published in the late 90s. I think they had a revised version in 2003-ish, but we were watching Moneymaker v Farha when those words were written.

Even SSHE was written in the Partypoker days, where 9 to the flop was standard.

WITHG, the newest book, predated BF by 4 years.

And it's been 4 years since BF!

Put it this way: If you were born when HEPFAP was published, you'd have a driver's license by now.

There's always going to be some core principles that are good: be aggressive with your good hands, make sure you pay the right price to draw. But what constitutes a strong hand is context-dependent and what constitutes a passive player is context dependent, and context changes a lot over time.

I'm not saying it's necessarily good or necessarily bad (I have a copy but have not touched it in years), but there's been so much that has happened since then that you should really think about what applies and what doesn't apply. Don't take the if-thens as gospel.
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05-28-2015 , 08:20 PM
^ Stellar post, my friend. Simply stellar.
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05-28-2015 , 10:26 PM
FWIW, I just played a 6 max 8 game where I was the only one w/ a VPIP under 50.

So, loose games still exist. But unlike straightforward SSHE where you bet the crap out of your good hands, you have to do different things to get the money sometimes in these kind of games (like checking marginal value hands to let a bluff monkey do his thing when checked to, exploiting imbalanced hand ranges, etc). I still think SSHE is reasonably applicable for any OL game $0.25 and under (and maybe even $0.50) and any live game where a small bet is in the single digits, and maybe up to 20.
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05-29-2015 , 08:15 PM
.
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05-30-2015 , 10:43 AM
For one example of a concept that might be outdated, let's look at page 31 talking about what to do from middle position (which at a 9-handed table UTG, UTG+1, UTG+2, MP, HJ, CO, BTN, SB BB I'm interpreting is MP and HJ or maybe UTG+2):

1 AA, AKs, KK, QQ, JJ
2 AK, AQs, AJs, KQs, TT
3 AQ, ATs, KJs, QJs, JTs, 99
4 AJ, KQ, KTs, QTs, J9s, T9s, 98s, 88
5 A9s - A2s, KJ, QJ, JT, Q9s, T8s, 97s, 87s, 77, 76s, 66
6 AT, KT, QT, J8s, 86s, 75s, 65s, 55, 54s

The book says you should almost always raise rather than limp (the book says call but let's be honest - it's limping ) when:
1. Nobody else has entered the pot
2. You have a playable hand (groups 1 through 6)
3. There's at least a small chance everyone will fold

The book says that if either 1 or 3 are not the case, throw away the group 6 hands and just call with the weaker hands in groups 1 through 5.

A couple problems I have with that:
- I would expand #3 to include "or you will be able to take down the pot with a flop and/or flop/turn barrel" which is often the case, and a good postflop player can look at the board to assess which boards are most likely to get c-bet folds.
- I can't imagine limping first in with *anything* from UTG+2, MP or HJ unless I'm at the type of table where I'm sure I'll be seeing a unraised 5-way pot if I limp, and then I'm only limping hands that play well in multiway pots but don't play well heads up/3-handed.
- If my limp will either get raised behind me or result in a 3- or 4-way limped pot, I can't imagine ever limping anything - I'm raising, and my raising range is dependent on how likely I am to get 3-bet behind me and how the villains play postflop.

Or maybe I'm just rambling here, who knows.

I guess the point is to ask if this is an example of theory in the book that's outdated.
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05-30-2015 , 08:18 PM
Describe the game you're playing in.

(Generally, that's the issue with following a poker recipe. You have to assume a game type. Guessing the book says "unless told otherwise, assume..." Still, three are some hands on that list I don't play and others I grin and raise.)
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05-30-2015 , 09:58 PM
I would raise AA even if I knew everyone behind me would call preflop, on the flop, and the turn.

I would raise AA especially if I knew everyone behind me would call preflop, on the flop, and the turn.

The outdated concept here is that the main mechanism by which you win money is by everyone folding.
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05-30-2015 , 10:09 PM
The idea that someone's going to flop two unders and call with the ninth nut backdoor flush draw and runner-runner trips draw is what is missing.

Raising A9s, flopping an ace, and value betting three times and being good is foreign.

And it's totally true there are some opponents from this era - the guys who decline to defend the BB against your button raise, then flash you an ace. (Pro tip: always show like A9+ 88+ whenever you have it, to reward them for folding.)
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05-31-2015 , 02:56 AM
It may be outdated, but your example with AA does not show anything. It's definitely not one of the "weaker hands" mentioned.
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05-31-2015 , 12:30 PM
It is intentionally not one of the weaker hands mentioned.

It is, in fact, the strongest hand mentioned. Coupled with knowledge of what the weakest hand should do, it's then left as an exercise for the reader what to do with alk the hands in between.
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07-28-2015 , 08:02 PM
Hello
I say a way I learn this game
book1: Small Stakes Hold'Em (SSHE) very very good book and can help you kick things started
book2: Winning Low-Limit Hold'em by Lee Jones
this book I consider as a supplement for SSHE

after you play game for a while: I suggest read
Tom McEnvoy & T.J. Clutier Book3: championship holdem
this book did a good job talking about some frame work, play specific hand and non-cards factor. This is good to improve your game when you already know how to play.

At the end, when you probably able to win 1-2 Big Bet/Hour, you want to read Book4 :Hold 'em Poker for Advanced Players and Book5: Theory of poker.
I feel these two book give a great background knowledge and they explain things clearly. The information present in these two book can help you understand the game in bigger picture and can help you win in long run.

The order I recommend these book intend to help ppl get things started first, getting hand dirty and might taste the sweet of winning a little bit. Then book 3 give you the knowledge of specific situation, mindset, and non-poker factor like reaing ppl and table selection.
I put book 4-5 at the end, because those information are very important but abstract and little boring, you might want to read it after you are winning little bit which provide great motivation (when you win you want to win more haha).
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07-29-2015 , 10:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BobC
I've been reading "Advanced Limit Hold'em Strategy" by Barry Tanenbaum. I think it's a good book; however, I find it quite difficult.
interesting. i logged in just to post about this book. i rather enjoyed it, found it to be a cleaner version of the Stox book. basically covered all of the topics of the Stox book but without 5,000 pages of Poker Tracker charts.

if you're a beginner, please read Small Stakes Holdem - it lays the foundation for everything you'll do in Limit Holdem and will help you tremendously at playing small stakes games live and online.

if you eventually want to move up in stakes, pick up Winning in Tough Holdem Games or Advanced Limit Holdem Strategy. both provide a great explanation of the action you'll see at middle limits.
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07-29-2015 , 12:36 PM
I see all of these recommendations for books I have believed were terrible (i.e. Tom McEnvoy & T.J. Clutier). I think about how old Stox book is. Wonder if people should be Lobbying Mason to publish a modern LHE book. There are plenty of famous (and not famous) crushers who aren't playing any more, thus their incentive to not ruin their own games is gone.

The 2+2 Publication of Modern Small/Mid Stakes LHE one time?
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07-29-2015 , 07:47 PM
I would buy that, and I say that as someone who already owns SSHE, WITHG, IPP, and FLHE.
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07-29-2015 , 08:01 PM
I just started playing LHE this year.. i already got enough catching up to do!

so i vote no for the whole modern LHE book! stop making it so easy for recs to learn! :P
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07-29-2015 , 09:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by khrage
I just started playing LHE this year.. i already got enough catching up to do!

so i vote no for the whole modern LHE book! stop making it so easy for recs to learn! :P
Witness all the cold calling regs do and remember how they said not to do that at least 15 years ago.

Believe me, a well rounded strategy has not come into being for these guys.
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07-29-2015 , 11:07 PM
agree with lawdude that death of a salesman is best poker book of all time. Honorable mentions for Howard's End, Song of Solomon and of course, The Cat in the Hat.
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07-30-2015 , 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by thesilverbail
agree with lawdude that death of a salesman is best poker book of all time. Honorable mentions for Howard's End, Song of Solomon and of course, The Cat in the Hat.
As Bob Dylan said, don't criticize what you can't understand, silver.
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07-30-2015 , 06:07 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317
Witness all the cold calling regs do and remember how they said not to do that at least 15 years ago.

Believe me, a well rounded strategy has not come into being for these guys.
Honestly, if we are talking about beating live games up to 20/40 or so, I would simply recommend ANY limit poker book, because the problem that people have ISN'T that there is a lack of good strategy available. It's that about 95 percent of the live poker population lacks any discipline.

Even slavishly adhering to the strategies in an outdated book like "Hold 'Em for Advanced Players" would crush the vast majority of live players, because they really are that undisciplined and terrible.

So if you are a beginning player just get ANY limit poker book and get yourself to the point where you can slavishly and consistently adhere to every one of its recommendations with complete discipline. THEN start posting hands on 2 plus 2 and learn better strategies and how to make adjustments.
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07-30-2015 , 06:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by lawdude
As Bob Dylan said, don't criticize what you can't understand, silver.
I was being sincere

Death of a salesman has one of the best insights into human character i've ever read. Poker is played by humans.
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