She posts all the time and puts up with 100/100/100 Jeese challenging her to fights

does the money go in better if we check/call river? teach me im a beginner

Yes.

how? teach me

Obviously I think it goes in better checking since I checked. If I thought betting was better I would have bet. Feel free to list your reasons why you think I'm wrong and I'll happily respond.

I knkw everyone loves to post they'll call with lots of hands they wont value bet, but please recognize this situation is basically the exact opposite of that (and why I think it makes an interesting thread).

I'll be honest, regarding river decision I'm just going to assume that I'm right unless I'm convinced otherwise (which I think is def posisble and why I posted the hand). But I really don't care enough to "teach" why I'm right, especially given what I assume is the condescending nature of the question (if that's not what you meant that my apologies).

Hero may believe that x/c allows him to induce when villain bluffs or vbets worse and avoids predicament of betting and villain folding (as hero ascribes this level of competence to this villain) when ahead and the predicament of either b/c or b/f when behind the flush that is plenty likely. There are WA/WB elements to the hand afaict.

Still, as I'm writing this, Im trying to reverse engineer hero's assumptions, as this a somewhat newer concept for me to grasp and the thread has actually inspired some reflection on this spot that I'd previously never really considered. I'm the guy that usually just b/c river here. I will now start to consider other options in this spot.

So..... you posted a hand against a reg but provide no reads, dont give us the reasoning you took a line in the spot you want discussed, and then refuse to "teach" why you did what you did unless someone "teaches" you why its wrong?

Its tough to comment on the spot without more information. It takes a particular kind of bad or brilliant to be willing to fold 8x to a river bet but bluff if checked too

his range looks like over pairs or big draws. Hero has shown a ton of strength and 8x isnt doing well when he bets the river, so villain will expertly fold. If hero checks river villain can bluff a flush since it would be dumb to try a bluff the river since Hero obviously has an overpair

imo

Sorry for lack of info as I agree it's important. I don't play a ton of holdem with cutoff as we primarily play mix games. I've def seem him make some pretty big laydowns jn spots where straight holdem players are far more likely to payoff. I also think the mix game backround makes him more inclined to jam draw hands on flop, as this type of stuff is far more common in o8 and other split pot games.

I also should point out I think it's very unlikely that he would bluff river here, I just think it's slightly more likely than him calling with 8x (which I think he never does. He also knows that the second he takes his action on the flop, I put him on a flush draw and the second he doesn't take turn we both know it's his most likely holding by far. What I don't know, is whether or not he's balsy enough to try and fold out an overpair on river when obvious flush gets there.

Also, im very open to the debate that my river line is not the best.

You didn't miss that.

I said "nh", and I thought the river x/c was obvious (and I don't see why Jon should be criticized for posting it without an explanation of what he did- it's an interesting hand), but here is my explanation:

We know that in a small pot, bet/folding is often better than check/calling, because we get value from weaker hands while not giving up much when we get raised. However, in a big pot, a couple of things happen to your b/f and x/c ranges:

First, your b/f range should shrink immensely. The cost of an incorrect fold is now quite a bit higher. Folding a hand with showdown value is a huge mistake in a big pot. Sometimes there are situations where you should nonetheless fold, but they usually involve situations where there are 2 opponents and it comes back 3 bets to you.

Second, your x/c range should grow. Your x/c range is expressed as follows: it is the portion of your range that (1) you do not b/f, (2) which wins, in a heads-up pot, less than 67 percent of the time (because if you win more than that, you should b/c) and which wins, in a heads-up pot, more than the 1/the pot odds you are getting.

Now, in a big pot, that fraction 1/pot odds gets smaller. If you are getting 3 to 1 on your river call, you should x/c anything you aren't bet-folding and has between 25 and 67 percent equity. But if you are getting 9 to 1 on your river call, you should x/c anything that you aren't bet-folding and has between 10 and 67 percent equity. Your check-call range gets larger both because there are more hands that can profitably call at the bottom and because you are bet-folding less.

So Jon can't bet-fold this river with so much showdown value in a big pot. He either has to bet-call or check-call. Is his hand still good 67 percent of the time when the 5 of clubs, a card which makes flushes, straights, AND 2 pair, hits? No, it isn't, so he has to check-call.

On the surface this seems reasonable but is actually wrong. First of all, we have to fix what precisely you're comparing. Assume both players OOP and IP have the same range but in case A it's a 3 BB pot and in case B it's a 5 BB pot. Some hands that we x/f in case A become x/c (or x/r) in case B but some hands in the x/c range of case A go into the b/c,b/f or b/3! range of case B. Generally (assuming the ranges of the two players are not extremely different from each other), the second effect dominates (one way to intuitively see this is to realize that our x/f ranges are going to be small in both cases anyway).

BTW, another common misconception is to assume you always call on the river in proportion to alpha (1/pot). This is only the case with symmetric ranges. Otherwise, x/c frequency can be significantly less. In some extreme cases for example you might end up folding 70% of the time after you check.

All this is assuming GTO play by both villains. Perhaps the default play versus an unknown villain should be something quite different.

It's fine to say that my post isn't GTO, but that doesn't make it "wrong" in any meaningful sense.

When you start talking about b/f and x/c ranges in the abstract, one can only assume you're talking from a theoretical perspective. Otherwise you should qualify your statements with what your assumptions about villain are.

My assumptions are that we aren't playing GTO, because nothing in the OP indicated we were. Rather, we are attempting to exploit by betting or checking based on our opponent's perceived range. In that instance, we want to bet/call only where our hand is ahead often enough against our opponent's range to make it a +EV play, and we want to bet/fold only where that line is superior to a check/call in terms of EV against our opponent's range. We aren't worried about what other hands in our range might do, because nothing in the OP indicated we are playing a balanced range.

Having said all that, I just want to go back to what you said about my comment. There's nothing wrong with saying it was not GTO; I freely admit that. But that doesn't make it "wrong", because in fact, it is "wrong" to play GTO against anyone other than a non-exploitable, GTO opponent anyway (because GTO fails to make +EV exploitative adjustments), and it is also "wrong" to play against non-exploitable, GTO opponents because you can't make any money playing them.

"Wrong" and "not GTO" are two totally orthoganal concepts.

I think the flop decision is fun. I'd probably 3 bet, but calling the raise basically worked out perfectly for you this time. I wonder about how the hand plays out when the big blind 4 bets.

The river obviously helps his semi face up range and hurts your very face up range. I think you should check call lots of stuff here, including this hand. Bet calling is a liability, but checking can realize lots of showdown equity when it checks through, and you almost certainly have a profitable call if he bets.

In fact, the only hands I think you should bet call are 88 and KK. I think you should check call everything else, which is basically AA, and QQ-99.

It's basically the inverse of donking on cards that help your range and hurt your opponent's range.

I'd play AcKc and KcQc-KcTc this way and bet-3-bet the river.

I just call the flop 3 bet with these hands, but could be persuaded otherwise.

ok fine, you're not wrong about anything, sorry if I hurt your feelings.