Live 3/6, loose game, many players to the flop, several playing ATC, typically not much raising PF, but this hand went a bit nuts. I'm down about 1.5 racks, and admittedly not playing my best at this point in the session.

I'm UTG+1 with KQ

PF: UTG folds, I limp, UTG+2 raises, all call 2 cold and the SB 3!. The SB is a fairly straightforward player whose 3! basically means AA-QQ, maybe AKs. BB calls, I call knowing that I'm most likely facing a cap behind me. UTG+2 caps, everybody calls.

Flop (8 players, 30SB after the drop): T 7 4
SB checks, BB donks, my turn...

Questions:
1. Preflop, should I just raise it up? Fold? I struggle with KQo/KJo/QJo when up front.
2. Once it's 2 back to me PF, is that just a standard fold? Does pot size not matter anymore?
3. As played, should I be raising the BB donk bet OTF? Obviously there is no protection, and I can't see anyone with the A folding. Would the raise just be piling spew on top of spew?

This might be a good hand to have the more experienced folks here walk me through an equilab calculation. I'm familiar with the software and the general idea of equity, but I'm still not sure I'm using it correctly to analyze my decisions. I haven't done the Equilab for this hand yet, I'll make that an exercise for tomorrow (and also reread the section in SSHE about playing in large pots).

1. Probably raise. Maybee fold.
2. I prob fold
3. Raising would be terrible.

1) I would raise KQo in EP. I don't like limping it.

2) As played and given your read on the 3-bettor, I would probably fold.

3) I would not raise in this position. You have the second nut flush draw. You are never getting the A to fold, and that is really the only handed you are worried about. It may get raised behind you anyway. Given your position, you are unlikely to buy a free card on the turn.

1. Preflop, should I just raise it up? yes.

Fold? no.

I struggle with KQo/KJo/QJo when up front. I typically raise KQo. KJo and QJo depends on table dynamics. You make $$ based on other players' mistakes; if raising KJo/QJo will still get worse hands to call, go ahead and raise. If limping will induce more lose calls (from offsuit connectors to dominated Kx/Qx), go ahead and limp. If neither of these above apply, go ahead and fold. SSHE suggests folding QJo and limping KJo I believe.
2. Once it's 2 back to me PF, is that just a standard fold? As played, yes.

Does pot size not matter anymore? The pot size always matters, and whether to call or not also depends on your reading ability postflop and sb's range. Assuming the range given, the reason for folding is that we are dominated overwhelmingly and have poor relative position. The times we flop a pair, we are forced to raise to protect our hand, opening ourself up to getting 3bet. We are OOP against the rest of the field, and our hand struggles to play well on later streets multiway.

3. As played, should I be raising the BB donk bet OTF? SSHE suggests yes to "buy outs" and 2p2 overwhelmingly suggests no. We'd optimistically hope to buy 2 outs against an AKs that whiffed and would fold for two bets cold. Every other scenario makes calling superior (let other hands pad our draw, make our draw cheap, see how UTG+2 responds, not get value-towned by BB's flopped flush, etc.)

Would the raise just be piling spew on top of spew? Yes. Try to understand what you're trying to accomplish.

In my games I pretty much always open KQo. KJo and QJo are more situation-dependent.

Don't raise flop. Given read your pair outs are worthless. All you have is the flush draw. Raise won't fold better (A) but calling behind will encourage calls from worse esp in such a big pot.

1. KQo/KJo/QJo is never an open-limp. It really doesn't love tons of company, so if you are playing it, raise it. QJo and KJo are questionable from EP, KQo is fine in most 3/6 games. My cutoff is KQo (meaning I play) from UTG/UTG+1 FWIW.
2. We can fold this and rest easy. You have lots of RIO problems, marginal high card value, and a sub-par multiway hand. FYI, You can use stove here to start giving yourself ideas on how you stack up. It doesn't tell the whole story, but it will help.
3. I wouldn't raise next in as we don't want to fold weaker draws and we aren't cleaning up anything for ourselves with a raise. However, I may back-raise if you get multiple callers. It's tough since we don't have the nut draw, but with 8 players we need to strap on the seatbelt and push equity through the large field.

I think #2 and #3 are pretty straightforward and there's no point in my reiterating what has been said above.

I don't think you can go far wrong with how you play KQ up front. I've played in games where a fold is correct. I've played where a raise is correct, and I think this that kind of game (people likely to cold-call, and do it incorrectly).

But I don't agree that limping KQo up front is never correct. It's not as allergic to family pots as some would have you believe (do some stoves with the kind of players in this game and you'll see what I mean)---and it's definitely miles better than A8o, for example. So I don't see the dislike of limping in *some* games.

This does not remain true for QJ, KJ, and I lean toward folding those.

1) I don't despise it, given table nature, but I'd still either raise or fold. I lean towards raise vs this table, and getting in the money OTF if a K or Q spikes w/ no ace.

2) given two guys have hands I'd likely need to flop a monster against, I think fold is fine here.

3) I'm like folding here. Better than getting caught in the middle again, since at least one overpair is certain to exist out there (and maybe two). And as you said, your flush draw may be no good. That being said, with 9 outs to a monster twice, I'm probably getting ready for the ride down no fold em hold em ville.

I don't think SSHE recommends trying to buy outs in spots like this. I don't think AK is folding in spots like this because the pot is so big and even if it did fold, we still have to worry about big pairs, spades (including the queen of spades, which may lose the pot for us), sets, made flushes, and hands like KT of QT or even K7 or Q7 which would make two pair when we catch our king or queen. I wouldn't even be surprised if someone showed up with K4 or Q4, even if we raise the flop.

I would call on the flop. I hate this spot but the pot is so huge that I wouldn't want to fold it now. I'd raise KQ pf but I don't really hate calling, and as played I would fold pf once it got back to me.

Edit: To the OP, pot size definitely matters PF, but your pot equity is so low in this spot that I'm pretty sure it's a fold anyway, and the fact that you'll have to pay around 2-3 more small bets means your equity needs to be much better than it would be if you just had to call 1 bet. The fact that your position is terrible makes this an even easier fold. Just look at how important position is on the flop. You're forced into either folding in a huge pot, calling before you've seen most of the players act, or making a raise that IMO would be spewing.

Thanks for the comments so far. After the hand was over, I thought this through and came to basically the same conclusions that many of you have posted here. Perhaps the best play I made in this hand was, after it was over, admitting to myself that I had reached a low point in my play, and racked up the rest of my chips and went home.

Yeah, thanks for pointing that out. I still want to do the stoves for practice and review, but didn't have time today. I did a quick PokerCruncher calc on the iphone and got a PF equity of around 7%, way less than I actually thought (which is of course why we do these calcs). On the flop I jumped to about 18%, but being OOP makes it much harder to realize that equity as you mentioned. I'll try to post the ranges and calcs later. My ranges might be way off, and I'd like some feedback on that too if people care to chime in.

I stoved this out and gave your callers ATC with the top end chopped off. I also gave the first raiser a pretty wide range, so I ended up with something like 8.5% for you. Either way, 7 or 8, the ATC field atctually had a small advantage on you, which surprised me.

I was thinking that putting in 12.5% of the money when you're at 8% wouldn't be that terrible when you're getting 8/1 (which I think is close to what you were getting when it was 2 bets back to you PF). It's similar to calling hands from the SB that we wouldn't call other-wise. Then I read the responses and thought about it. Too many playability issues.

Another example of how stove doesn't tell the whole story. From the SB in an unraised pot I would call a hand with a -4% equity difference if I was getting 8/1. In this situation its probably not going to be profitable.

1) KQo pretty standard raise from UTG+1, imo. Even with all the lame ducks who will come along (just don't feel obligated to cbet).
2) Pot-size matters, and you are priced in imo. I don't think folding would necessarily be bad if you're sure at least one person has KK+. But getting >8:1, I probably call to hope for str8's or four-card flushes.
3) I probably just call and hope for overcallers. If SB had donked and BB called, I might like a raise (def would if held A).

Raise pre and b/c otf. As played raise.

(edit: i kinda disagree with the flop advice in this thread. I would love to fold out a red pp or overs that have us dominated. Aka cleaning up outs. Also I think the flop advice here might be more prudent if hero had opened pf and it was 3-4b pf but it wasn't. Also we don't have a read on bb Or utg2 - had sb led out then we'd have more of an argument of folding but even then I'd prob disagree. Like i said, if we raise here we Are putting the original pf raisers in an awful position if they have red overs or a hand like red or no spade PP. we have the second nut fd and overs. I think a raise here has both a lot of value and Fold equity - even if it's on later streets .)

Btw ... There's no shame in leaving when you're down even if it's a rack or less. Life's too short man - fill your time with enjoyable things ... Just mho ... (fwiw I often leave if I get buried for 1-2 racks to boot ... I'm a tilt wussy)...

I could see folding out AK if they had no spades, maybe even QQ with no spades, but do we have any fold equity vs A of spades? I doubt it...

I mentioned being down 1.5 racks just to set the stage and give some specific info. I definitely don't play when I'm losing. Wasn't really ashamed of having a losing session, but thanks for the reminder