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Old 06-18-2012, 11:42 AM   #1
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Crying calls

I'm in the process of a slump so I've been thinking critically about a few of my plays and was wondering whether I might have identified a source of the spew. I've been dealt with a lot of premium starting hands lately but I can't figure out whether I'm making the right calls or should be folding. Here are two examples:

UTG+1 dealt AK and raise I have 3 cold calls plus the blinds.
Flop:

52j

I bet 3 call.

Turn
5
I bet one caller and a lag on the button raises. I call thinking that the pot is so large and I shouldn't fold after betting.

River:
K

I check button bets I call.


Second situation most of the players are passive and call frequently button is a new player but well recognized in the card room (I'd never seen her but all the dealers seem to recognize her)
KK in the small blind. Button bets I raise someone else caps. 5 handed. (19 bets)

Flop:
724:
I check and it goes to the button who bets and I raise making it two for everyone and get one caller from middle position. (25 bets)

Turn:
J
I bet middle calls button raises I call. Middle folds.

River:

2
I check button bets I call.

I realize we're not supposed to be results oriented, and I obviously posted these because I lost, but I can't figure out whether I'm playing poorly or if I'm just getting unlucky.
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:20 PM   #2
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Re: Crying calls

Quote:
Originally Posted by futbolistagringo View Post
I'm in the process of a slump so I've been thinking critically about a few of my plays and was wondering whether I might have identified a source of the spew. I've been dealt with a lot of premium starting hands lately but I can't figure out whether I'm making the right calls or should be folding. Here are two examples:

UTG+1 dealt AK and raise I have 3 cold calls plus the blinds.
Flop:

52j

I bet 3 call.

Turn
5
I bet one caller and a lag on the button raises. I call thinking that the pot is so large and I shouldn't fold after betting.

River:
K

I check button bets I call.


Second situation most of the players are passive and call frequently button is a new player but well recognized in the card room (I'd never seen her but all the dealers seem to recognize her)
KK in the small blind. Button bets I raise someone else caps. 5 handed. (19 bets)

Flop:
724:
I check and it goes to the button who bets and I raise making it two for everyone and get one caller from middle position. (25 bets)

Turn:
J
I bet middle calls button raises I call. Middle folds.

River:

2
I check button bets I call.

I realize we're not supposed to be results oriented, and I obviously posted these because I lost, but I can't figure out whether I'm playing poorly or if I'm just getting unlucky.
Hand 1) If this player is a LAG and capable of popping it w/ Jx in this spot, I think you have to pay him off, giving the pot odds. Not sure if I'd bet out OTT, because I feel like I'm more likely to get popped by something I'm either possessing 6 outs against (2 of which are dirty), or I'm drawing dead. Against a field of standard live players, I'd rather see the river as cheap as possible and turbo fold if an A or K doesn't spike.

Hand 2) I'm probably paying off here as well. This is a button raise, which could mean a lot of stuff; like Jx, QQ, club draw, a semibluff w/ T9 (which would be weird here given the flop, but not impossible). No draws have gotten there yet, the only thing to be realistically afraid of OTT is a set or AA (though this is quite the LOL line w/ AA OTF, to not 3! here).
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:29 PM   #3
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Re: Crying calls

How is hand one a crying call? Check the turn...also bet the river.

Hand two isn't a crying call either. You played it fine.

-hf
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Old 06-18-2012, 12:55 PM   #4
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Re: Crying calls

Quote:
Originally Posted by holmfries View Post
How is hand one a crying call? Check the turn...also bet the river.

Hand two isn't a crying call either. You played it fine.

-hf
As played (b/c the turn), I think c/c the river is fine. R/f might also work, if he thinks the LAG is incapable of 3!'ing on the river w/out trips+.
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Old 06-18-2012, 01:23 PM   #5
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Re: Crying calls

I check call the turn in hand 1 and probably bet the river.

I kinda like C/R/F the river in hand 2 if the button will bet a large range but not 3-bet with worse. Also knowing the specific PF action would make me more confident but other than a K the two is the best card in the deck for you.
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Old 06-18-2012, 01:59 PM   #6
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Re: Crying calls

why did you bet AK high into 5 people in hand 1? why are you still betting the turn after multiple people call you?

AK is a great starting hand. when you miss with it and you have multiple opponents it becomes trash. so play it like trash and c/c 1 bet and c/f for two.
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Old 06-18-2012, 02:57 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KitCloudkicker View Post
why did you bet AK high into 5 people in hand 1? why are you still betting the turn after multiple people call you?
This.

You put in 2.5BB on the flop/turn against 5 players with Ace high!
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:00 PM   #8
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Re: Crying calls

Thanks for the advice. I think I have been holding onto AK too much and in the process forgetting its a drawing hand. My thinking on the flop is that I'll probably call a single bet and no one is likely to raise so I might as well be the one who puts it in. Looking at the turn I don't really know why I bet the AK. I think I have been too obsessed with betting it for deception.
In hand 1 if the button makes it 3 on the flop would your play change?
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:08 PM   #9
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Re: Crying calls

Quote:
Originally Posted by futbolistagringo View Post
Thanks for the advice. I think I have been holding onto AK too much and in the process forgetting its a drawing hand. My thinking on the flop is that I'll probably call a single bet and no one is likely to raise so I might as well be the one who puts it in. Looking at the turn I don't really know why I bet the AK. I think I have been too obsessed with betting it for deception.
In hand 1 if the button makes it 3 on the flop would your play change?
I wouldn't call AK a 'drawing' hand. It's the best non-pair hand and heads up will often win unimproved. In bigger games that's common.

FWIW I don't hate the continuation bet on the flop, but I wouldn't make it automatic. It adds some deception to your play to mix it up. When you get called you're toast and need to shut it down on the turn. As played just fold the turn. The raiser almost always has a 5 or better there. In the future don't bet in the first place - check/fold.

In Hand 1 it wasn't raised so no-one can make it 3 on the flop - but if the button did raise the flop then call and c/f the turn unimproved.
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:43 PM   #10
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Re: Crying calls

Quote:
Originally Posted by Chasqui View Post
This.

You put in 2.5BB on the flop/turn against 5 players with Ace high!
Is it bad that I don't absolutely hate the flop c-bet?

I mean, I don't like it either and would probably c/c when not concerned about balancing (like in this case), but I can see why one might instinctively do it.

Turn bet is definitely not good. c/c, or c/f if it gets back raised (or if a particularly nitty player who never raises w/out 2 pair+ pops it).
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Old 06-18-2012, 03:43 PM   #11
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Re: Crying calls

I think betting the flop is the mistake in hand 1. Once we bet the flop, I think its a bigger mistake to not bet this turn. Maybe I'm underestimating the passivity of live players with made hands, but I just fell like we have the best hand often enough to want to charge all the random over card hands villains have in this spot.
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Old 06-18-2012, 04:32 PM   #12
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Re: Crying calls

Are we really debating whether or not AK is a "drawing hand"....?

Doug help us here please.

-hf
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:00 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jdr0317 View Post
Is it bad that I don't absolutely hate the flop c-bet?
We are against 5 players with a board that hits the blinds with no backdoor draw, our A is reversed dominated a lot there. On top of that, against 5 players your cbet will get raised frequently on the flop.

The turn bet is worse for sure, but calling a raise probably drawing dead takes the cake.
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:04 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Slide View Post
I think betting the flop is the mistake in hand 1. Once we bet the flop, I think its a bigger mistake to not bet this turn.
Out of 5 players 3 called our flop bet, how can bet be good on the turn?
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Old 06-18-2012, 06:32 PM   #15
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Re: Crying calls

Quote:
Originally Posted by futbolistagringo View Post
UTG+1 dealt AK and raise I have 3 cold calls plus the blinds.
Flop:

52j

I bet 3 call.

Turn
5
I bet one caller and a lag on the button raises. I call thinking that the pot is so large and I shouldn't fold after betting.

River:
K

I check button bets I call.
Preflop: fine

Flop: Don't bet AKs UI into 5 opponents unless you have a flush draw. On this board you don't even have a back door flush draw. Check and call one bet.

Turn: As played, after you got 3 callers on flop, you should check and call one bet. The pot here is 7-8 BB (depending on rake), so if someone bets, you have the odds to call one with your 6 outs. In a smaller pot you should fold the turn.

Quote:
Originally Posted by futbolistagringo View Post
Second situation most of the players are passive and call frequently button is a new player but well recognized in the card room (I'd never seen her but all the dealers seem to recognize her)
KK in the small blind. Button bets I raise someone else caps. 5 handed. (19 bets)

Flop:
724:
I check and it goes to the button who bets and I raise making it two for everyone and get one caller from middle position. (25 bets)

Turn:
J
I bet middle calls button raises I call. Middle folds.

River:

2
I check button bets I call.

I realize we're not supposed to be results oriented, and I obviously posted these because I lost, but I can't figure out whether I'm playing poorly or if I'm just getting unlucky.
This hand looks fine. Don't start folding overpairs on relatively nonthreatening looking boards in big pots when some unknown raises you on the turn. Call down and make a mental note of what hand they played like this.
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