I have a TAG image. The game is decent usually 5 to the flop, sometimes more, sometimes less. Post flop is average aggression with the best hand typically taking down the pot. The blinds are pretty loose and can be aggressive.

Hand 1) UTG +1 limps(A very good TAG. This is the first time I have seen him open limp. I don't suspect he is limping with AA or KK since there is no reason too in this game(there are enough loose spots who will cold call). Two fairly loose, average players call and it is too me on the button. I have QdTs. What is my play?

Hand 2) UTG raises(he is a Laggy Asian player), two fairly loose average players call and it is to me on the button. I have Ac7c. What is my play?
What if I had 8h9h?

Hand 1 FOLD QT is one of the best looking total sh=t hands that exist. Muck w/o thinking twice.

Hand 2 FOLD This is just a bad A, probably doninated w/ a 3% or so improvement. Muck w/o thinking twice.

Hand 2a FOLD This is tougher because your cards are live and stealthy. Muck but think twice about it.

fold, fold, maybe call

Hand 2 don't both Axs and 98s have at least 25% equity on LAG and 2 loose villains plus we have great position? And at least 20% equity if one of the 2 blinds come along? Or are we folding because of the 'aggressive' part of the blind's description so we are afraid of the 3 bet. If blinds are loose passive this has to be a call, right?

I fold them both.

Hand 2 is similar to a SSHE hand example (pg 257) where it is advised to call vs an UTG raiser and 4 cold-callers with exactly the same hand OTB. That game is described as "loose and aggressive with many players who habitually misplay their hands after the flop." Miller says you will make a modest profit with this hand.

The difference is that we have almost half of the implied odds and we might be up against slightly better players than the example in the book.

I fold all three of these. Without the description of UTG in hand 1 though, I can find 3 chips to chuck into the pot.

Is the description of UTG+1 the only thing making people say fold in hand #1?
What if there were a couple other callers along with those described in hand #1?
Playable then or are we still too far behind UTG+1's range?

The description of the hand containing QTo in a multiway pot is what influences me to fold.

Fold both hands. If the game were 6 or more to the flop, you could call the second hand, which with your only real hope is the nut flush. If you flop two pair, any cards above a seven pairing on the board will counterfeit your hand. Plus, you vulnerable to all combinations of A8-AK if any eights through kings materialize. With flopping top pair, it's just that your kicker is so icky.

Fold, fold call.

Hand 1 = fold

Hand 2 and 2a, I'll offer a dissenting opinion. Have you seen these players play A rag? What is your image? You'll have position throughout the hand. You can get off easy if you miss. Do you think your post-flop skills are better than the other players in this hand? Yes, on str8 odds, you'd like to be up against a larger field, but against the "right" field, these hands can be playable, too. On the "right" table, (like the one today +78BB in 4 hrs and a $400 table share!) particularly if I have a positive image to exploit, I'm in.

Folding any broadway hand for one bet against weak players is a mistake.

* Grunch *

Hand 1) Call.

Hand 2) Call if you think blinds will call but know when to drop it post flop. Fold 89s.

If the raiser was a leggy Asian player then call Barry G and get some dating advice.

I think the OP's description indicated that the players were not weak. QTo against this lineup of 3 average to good players (+blinds yet to act) is kinda borderline. We would play QJo and muck Q9o.

i play all three hands as this is a loose game, you have position, and all hands have good implied odds...i'd limp although raising would not be a big crime imho...

I wouldn't classify any action that probably needs tenths of a decimal point to quantify over a very large sample a "mistake"

My personal line here is to call with QJo about 40% of the time, and fold QTo all the time.

Perhaps you're stronger post-flop and can eke out a little more value than I can. But for me, I'm leaving my line drawn here at QJo.

Hand 1) Look to the blinds and see if either one has chips ready to raise; if they do not, call. If you can't call this hand on the button, you're in the wrong 3-6 game. You may have to make some decisions after the flop, but this isn't a huge trouble hand live. Play poker, and realize that you might lay down top pair depending on action. This call depends on your ability to outplay your opponents after the flop in some cases. If you're an average player at this table, I'd lean heavily to mucking. If you are the best player at the table, this is an easy call.

Hand 2 and 2a) Fold, Fold. I'd consider a reraise on A7 to isolate the raiser in the right circumstances, but the action didn't come down that way. This doesn't look to be a pot that will favor drawing hands. There are better spots to put your money in the middle.

Hand 1 is an easy call, unless the blinds are lagtarded.

Hand 2, I call, we have position, good suited hand, its going to be 5-6 ways


hand 2a

I fold this.

If it were QTs, I would go for a call. Being suited adds a lot of value to a hand in a multiway pot. QTo just doesn't have the strength against at least 3 opponents , even in position. You mentioned UTG+1 is a TAG player, who hasn't open limped yet. He could be limping with a hand like QJs or KTs, trying to get multiway action, which would obviously make calling here even worse.

This is one of the 4 fundamentals of preflop play outlined in SSHE:
Like Ricks said, you're not getting good enough implied, or immediate, odds to risk domination here.

Another of the 4 preflop fundamentals outlined in SSHE is:

I am very very very confused as to why so many people want to fold hand 1.

I'm folding both 2 and 3 but they are close. Add in another coldcaller and I'll start really considering a call.

see my response right above your post ^

But you are wrong (see basically any decent book) and this is common knowledge. Hence my confusion.

No, I'm not. I quoted directly from Small Stakes Hold'em by Sklansky, Malmuth, and Miller. I'm pretty sure it is a "decent" book, as it is the standard for small skates limit play.

The books says in multiple places that you can usually play any two broadway for one bet in LP.

I think that this is one of those "it depends" situations. I believe that the hand chart in SSHE includes this hand because the book is written for play against "less than good" players.

HPFAP would advise a fold against two limpers, especially if one of them plays well. If they were bad players you could play this hand, pg.37. Whether one more limper makes a difference is probably another question.

The authors of SSHE wrote the following on page 10:

" In Hold ‘em Poker for Advanced Players, we assume that your opponents play reasonably well. In this book, we assume that many of your opponents play poorly: specifically, that they play too many hands and go too far with them. The different assumptions can cause you to draw two totally different conclusions in situations that seem almost identical!"