Live 4/8
Whole table are regulars
Hero is a known nit asian. +2 is a senior with lots of experience
5 way limp
Hero check BB A9s
Flop JhTh8s
Hero check
UTG+2 bet
2 caller
I have a two way straight draw and a back door flush draw. I call

Turn is a Kh
+2 still bet
Fold to me
I feel that his hand does not make that much sense
His range: Pair J with a boardway straight draw (QJ, AJ)or JT KJ for two pair

I feel the board is very scary for any pairs
Hero check raise.
+2 call

River 2c. Hero bet
+2 fold show QJo

Is the play okay?

I'd raise preflop.

There are tons of two pair and pair+straight draw hands that he could have. None of these hands are folding if you raise the turn. This makes me think that this bit:

isn't true. He bet the turn into three opponents. He probably has something half decent.

I'd probably call the turn and hope to hit a straight.

I think your turn play is fine, but not for the reasons you stated, which makes it not fine. There's plenty of hands that make sense for UTG +2, all he did was bet in a limped pot on JT8r and continued on the K turn. Why can't he have all sorts of straight, 2p, etc combos?

I'd raise preflop too.

I think the pre-flop check is fine. It's actually difficult to play A9 suited out of position. But a raise is also fine-- you probably have an equity advantage against a bunch of limpers.

IMO Bob's got it right post-flop. This is a super-coordinated board. That means that you aren't going to have a lot of fold equity to the river, as there are a ton of draws. And further, once you get to the river, it's only one more bet to look you up.

Now, if you had a read that the villain will give up and make hero folds on the river, then you might try to pull this off.

Another point to realize is that against flush draws and naked straight draws, you have showdown value. In other words, your ace high is a hand that can sometimes call a river that bricks out. So better hands are going to call your bluff and worse hands are going to fold, whereas if you are checking you could induce bluffs that you can call and make money from. (That's not saying that you SHOULD always call a river bet-- but against the right villain, you could call one, and that makes your hand more of a bluffcatcher than a bluffing hand.)

If I WERE going to semi-bluff here, I'd rather do it with a hand that has no showdown value, e.g., 9hx or something like that, which might get some ace highs and queen highs to fold.

I wouldn't bluff anything here for two reasons:

1) it's 4/8.

2) it's a limped pot.

100% value check raise here imo. No bluffs.

I totally agree. I'm never bluffing here.

But even if I wanted to have a bluffing range, I'd start with 9hx and not ace highs.

Not sure what this means or how it applies. Our choices are to play A9s in a limped pot or in a 2b pot (assuming no LRR). I choose the latter. We are an equity favorite. The hand is also easier to play in a 2b pot since if we miss, we can usually correctly call 1 SB with our overcards / BDFD. In a limped pot, it's often correct to fold if we miss.


I agree that at 4/8, it's ok to never bluff, and expect to always get paid off. However, here, we have an old dude who folds too much. Bluff away.

Phunk:

Bear in mind, the cost of calling with a 6 out draw in a bloated pot is not a BENEFIT of A9 suited (or any hand); it's a cost. Pricing yourself in for a draw is fine, it happens, but it isn't part of the benefit of playing a hand.

Either a play is profitable or it isn't. There is no cost to playing profitable draws because by definition they are profitable.

That's not my point.

My point is, "if I raise X, I will price myself in to call when I miss" is not a reason to raise. If a play is +EV, it doesn't make it more so. If a play is -EV, it is an additional cost.

Thanks for all the reply
I did not raise preflop CUZ I do not know what do I do if I miss (check flop?)
Second
I play with the villain long enough that I know he knows that check raise on turn show sign of strength
He like to continue betting on his flop TP even if over card come
On the Turn we have 8xThJhKh
Which complete some staight draw and flush draw
And I think it is a raise/ fold situation for player to stay in.
Thanks for all the post. I m still learning the game

Tough for anyone to give you good advice here. That is probably not a good bluff against very many 4/8 players, but there are some against who it would be good. Looks like this was one of the players against whom it was a good idea, and he was kind enough to show you his hand to prove it. Well played, if you had a good reason to think he was that player, but we can't really verify for you.

I was talking about the playability of the hand, since you brought it up. IME its easier to play A9s in a bloated pot because floating it will usually be correct. In a limped pot, we have trickier decisions.

I think preflop depends on the opponents. There are plenty of 4/8 players who will play any two cards - if that is who you are playing, then it is an easy raise. On the other hand, there are lots of 4/8 players who are scared to put chips into the pot until they have the nuts on the river who will limp in with huge, HUGE hands. If you are facing a few of those players who also play tight, then you may not be an equity favorite and you should just check. It depends on the players and their ranges.

Bluffing should be used very rarely at 4/8. You need a lot of things to work in your favor to even try it. You need to have a tight image - check. You need to be against only one opponent (or maybe, MAYBE two - but probably not) - check. You need to have an opponent who can fold to your bluff - check. You need to take a line that makes sense. That is often the tricky requirement, but in this case this is exactly how you would play a flush, and probably other big hands such as straights and 2 pairs.

There may even be a few other requirements, such as that your opponent has a hand that he will fold (which also turned out to be true in this case), and that the pot isn't so huge that the villain will throw in a few more chips on the river just in case. It is rare for all of these to line up in one hand, but it seems to be OK in this case.

I'll give it a shot: that's a terrible spot to bluff.

Agreed. 4/8 players are calling your turn k/r almost always with that hand. And even worse what about the times u get 3!d OTT. Cc and lead the river if u get there.

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