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Check back flop? Check back flop?

08-01-2016 , 11:46 AM
8/16...9 handed

EP..super loose passive, straightforward, will call down with any piece.

BB...very Laggy pre and post. Will CR this flop with any pair or draw and air sometimes. He is defending 100%. I'm not sure what his 3 bet range looks like or if he has one in this situation.

EP open limps, folded to me in CO and I raise Ah2h, folded to BB who calls, EP calls.

KsQh2c...its checked to me....does checking back and reevaluate turn make sense?
Check back flop? Quote
08-01-2016 , 12:24 PM
Flop bet probably buys you a free turn card. Would expect BB to have a middle SC with a PF call..... (really expect this flop to entirely miss him). EP...well, he'll tell you if you are behind, correct?
Check back flop? Quote
08-02-2016 , 02:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
Flop bet probably buys you a free turn card...
Not when OP said that BB "Will CR this flop with any pair or draw and air sometimes". I bet a lot of flops 3 ways in position after being checked to. This hand, on this flop, probably not.
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08-02-2016 , 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by mongidig
BB...very Laggy pre and post. Will CR this flop with any pair or draw and air sometimes. He is defending 100%.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chillrob
Not when OP said that BB "Will CR this flop with any pair or draw and air sometimes".
cr..... really? This flop KQ2 hit villain with a piece? a VERY LAGGY pre player. Really?
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08-02-2016 , 01:41 PM
Not hard for a laggy player to have any pair or draw or air on that flop...
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08-02-2016 , 03:40 PM
air "sometimes".

Very laggy PF is going to 3! PF the vast majority of his hands that would hit this flop.

I guess the only way I see BB continuing on the flop is if Hero has been aggro lately.
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08-02-2016 , 03:57 PM
Even Laggy players at 8/16 only very rarely raise or especially reraise from the BB.
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08-02-2016 , 04:40 PM
I bet flop and take a lot of free turn cards. If villain c/r, I'd take one off and then fold most turn cards.
Check back flop? Quote
08-02-2016 , 04:48 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
air "sometimes".

Very laggy PF is going to 3! PF the vast majority of his hands that would hit this flop.

I guess the only way I see BB continuing on the flop is if Hero has been aggro lately.
I think a pretty generous pf 3b range still leaves him with k7- and q8- as hands that hit this flop.
Check back flop? Quote
08-02-2016 , 04:52 PM
That said, my range is still crushing my opponents and I feel inclined to bet all of it
Check back flop? Quote
08-02-2016 , 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by King Spew
air "sometimes".

Very laggy PF is going to 3! PF the vast majority of his hands that would hit this flop.

I guess the only way I see BB continuing on the flop is if Hero has been aggro lately.
This is interesting to me. What kind of range is LAG BB just flatting a lp raise that contains no K's and Q's? Like only middle connectors and trash? Do you think he's popping Q9, KTo etc?

Last edited by suchj0sh; 08-02-2016 at 06:32 PM.
Check back flop? Quote
08-02-2016 , 08:42 PM
(K or Q - little suited) is certainly in a very wide calling range PF. One and two...maybe three,,, lower SC. Any two suited? Any ace?

K9+ Q8+ J9+ maybe will be raising imo......so str8 draws might be a smallish part of call range.

Others can certainly disagree with me....as I am focused on Very Laggy. So I think villain will fold on the flop to a bet with most of his call range. Again without Hero image, it is difficult to truly get close to villain's range.
Check back flop? Quote
08-08-2016 , 01:31 AM
Quote:
EP open limps
Discussion so far has been centered around what BB will/won't do in the face of our bet. What tips the scales for me is EP's presence in the hand. Even players by this description at 8/16 are somewhat positionally aware, and open-limping requires more courage (and a slightly better hand) from these timid creatures than just joining the Limp Train when it rolls through town.

BB and EP ranges are loose, ill-defined, but probably not completely ******ed. EP will call with virtually anything, and BB is likely to C/R us with two Uno cards (Draw Four + Yellow Reverse FTW). The flop has a K and Q in it. We have a pair of deuces. No need for heroics here. Time to check and see if we improve, IMO.
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08-08-2016 , 05:30 AM
Bet flop and it's not close. If BB is defending ATC, that means he often has two unpaired cards above our bottom pair. Betting encourages our opponent to make an FTOPs mistake by folding 6outers.

If c/raised, we can start taking a look at our equity vs BB's range:

board: KsQh2c
Hand Equity
Ah2h 30.94%
Kx, Qx, Tx9y, JxTy, Jx9y, AxTy, AxJy 69.06%

Stoving around, it seems like a turn 9 is the worst card for us:

board: KsQh2c9s
Hand Equity
Ah2h 14.29%
Kx, Qx, Tx9y, JxTy, Jx9y, AxTy, AxJy 85.71%

And even then, we will be getting 6.1:1 on a call which is near breakeven.

Playing against a loose-passive UTG is super easy as well. Bet until he tells you you're beat. Even if the majority of UTG's limp range is skewed towards suited kings, suited queens, and pp's 33-TT that will hold on for two streets, I would bet for the following reasons:

1. He will also have many unpaired hands that you want to protect against getting free cards (e.g. 54s)
2. some hands that you dominate (Ax) may call a bet. These hands have ~12% equity.
3. If behind, you have ~25% equity (with backdoor flush/straight draws and 2pair outs).
4. You are too often not getting punished by UTG when behind, both because you have position and because he is loose passive and only knows to keep calling. This means you can check behind turns and rivers, depending on the card and number of players.
5. You are ahead range vs range, so the other hands in your range fully protect you from having too many bluffs:

board: KsQh2c
Hand Equity
21% 57.50%
40% 42.50%

21% - hands like A2s/K9s etc.
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