8/16 9 handed passive game ...

I have 33 in MP.

An older fellow - passive raises utg. A fish insta calls utg1 there's a fold and its to me.

If I think the blinds will definitely call and MAYBE one other caller my hypothetical odds are 5:1 ... I need 8:1 to flop a set and might get that back if the raiser has a big pp. Is this an easy call??

If yes what other hands are you over calling?

Thanks

I need a few more callers and a looser opener to play anything that I wouldn't 3 here.

I kinda feel the same way but in my game if I'm sure there's not a lag tard on my right then I might be tempted to call. At the 8 at CP even if there's two bets there cann eaisly be a barrage of ccers if EP players cc. W.a small pp I wanna win a big pot and I'm in the right conditions to do so then ill do it.

Mind you if I'm gonna do that I have to be 99.99% sure of the game conditions - that means loose ultra passive table with NO hot headed back raising idiots left to act.

So as played given your description and reads I would call here.

Yawn, call. Based on what you describe, lets start that horrible cold calling avalanche that makes you sick to your stomach when you have KK.

calling sounds good 2 me

This is what I do. Sometimes it's +EV to play like a complete station.

In a passive game, call and flop good.

Position, position, position.

You want to be sure to a high degree that there will be enough people in the pot. Three others is too few. Four is adequate. Five looks good. And you would really rather get in for as cheaply as possible, without paying any more raises.

Yes, I understand about those wonderfully appalling chains of cold-callers that make these games so good. What you want is for that chain to have already developed ahead of you, not to be playing along trying to develop it. You really don't want to be in a situation where you wind up seeing a flop four ways for three or four bets.

So in the situation you are describing, I would fold. With later position and one more cold-caller ahead of me I would be a lot happier.
That's the rub. I have no hands worth cold-calling first in after an opener. The range of hands I'm calling after an opener and one cold-caller is going to be narrow, narrow enough that it will be easy for anyone paying attention to read me, so I really would rather play 3!-or-fold. After two callers, that range starts opening up. I still don't like it, and at the same time the opportunities start to be too tempting. Pocket pairs, suited aces, medium to big suited connectors, biggish suited one-gaps.

And being on the button will lead me to cold-call a wider range than if there is anyone acting after me who has even a small likelihood of putting in a third bet.

I completely agree that your range is super-readable. I'd also love to have post flop position. OTOH, when cool calling I'd love to have more people behind to join in. OTB, no one else can join in -- we're hoping to go 4 ways at best. If you're worried about good hand readers in an 8/16 game, you're in the wrong 8/16 game. He said the game is loose/passive and that both the BB and the SB are coming. Thus, he's already aware of a 4 way pot and he thinks that it will go more. I'm assume that we're almost never getting 3 bet here.

The one other special factor in small PP hands is that they tend to be least vulnerable to position post flop. Once you have a set, who cares? If you don't flop a set and have to fold getting 15:1 due to poor position, well that just helps us with the expense of making that thin flop peel.

I could very well be playing wrong, but this is almost always a fold for me. Surprised to hear you say yawn, call.

std fold

X2

the answer is that it's totally game-flow-dependent. if pots are regularly going off 6-7 ways for 1-2 bets then i'd be inclined to call, and if pots are regularly going off 2-4 ways for 2-3 bets, then i'd fold. i will say that if you are not looking left in this spot, you are really doing yourself a disservice, because oftentimes the information you get from doing so will tell you whether to call or fold.

This is true x1 million.

It depends on how you feel about math. If you believe in it, the OP described a game where we're going to get a nice overlay on calling. This middle position call is better than a late position one because there are more people to tag along behind us. If you tend not to believe the game description or don't like math for figuring out how to play your set draws , fold because it is the conservative/correct play. In a tough game this is an easy muck. The game described isn't tough so it is an easy call. If our OP were playing online 10/20, the pot is going off for 3-4 bets and a positional genius is sitting behind to punish our hero for thinking about playing this. It would be a snap-fold.

On the one hand when there's a raise and 2 callers it often causes a cascade of callers and we are getting our price. Then again, sometimes we don't or we get 3 bet or more. For myself I'd rather be sure and will fold MP, call button if it's going to be 6 ways or more.

And, even though he can be called a nit, this is not a Tommy Angelo 'Bread and Butter' situation and, since his book HAS helped me, I'm now giving up on some spots that may be costing me a bit but are easier on the nerves.