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Small Stakes Limit Discussions about small stakes Texas Hold'em (from 2/4 to around 15/30)

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Old 03-01-2017, 03:50 PM   #1
jdkoerner
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can't get pot odds

I was recently faced with a 2,4 limit table at a casino, with 10 player chairs and only 7 of them filled (me and six other players). To make matters worse, they were tight limpers. So explain: in this or any other situation in which making pot odds is a real uphill battle, how do I bet? Example: Normally a flush draw needs 4:1 odds. Here the odds are worse because there are more cards in the deck undealt. What odds do I need to bet? Or does it become more a function of the percentage of players in the hand?
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:06 PM   #2
leavesofliberty
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Re: can't get pot odds

A strong player will work hard to break even at a tight 2-4 game, and there are no strong players. A tight 2-4 is unplayable. Save up for 4-8, imho. Drop speculative hands oop, weak aces oop, weak broadways oop, and nit up.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:19 PM   #3
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Re: can't get pot odds

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdkoerner View Post
Here the odds are worse because there are more cards in the deck undealt.
This is incorrect. Although it is counterintuitive, probability theory tells us that it doesn't matter how many cards have been dealt to other players versus how many are left in the deck. The only cards we know about and remove from the deck are our two hole cards, and the community cards. Any unseen card, wether in an opponent's hand or in the deck, counts in our odds calculation. What this means is that there are always 50 cards left before the flop, 47 after the flop, and 46 after the turn. This is true when you are playing at a six max table, or a nine handed table, or heads up, even when players fold their cards - from a probability perspective, if we haven't yet seen a specific card face-up, it could be dealt out on the next street.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:27 PM   #4
nattiecat
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Re: can't get pot odds

A flush draw still is approximately 4 to 1 against to make it on the next street. What is harder in your scenario is that it's more difficult to have the size of the pot offer you better than 4 to 1 on your call because less opponents and tighter opponents mean a smaller pot.
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:31 PM   #5
King Spew
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Re: can't get pot odds

Look for steal opportunities
Be aggressive with TP type hands...fold the rest.

making money at 2/4 HE is a tough uphill course. Not impossible but.....
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Old 03-01-2017, 04:49 PM   #6
leavesofliberty
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Re: can't get pot odds

FD is 1.86-1 assuming you can make it to the river. Most rakes are 10% making a tight game unbeatable.
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Old 03-01-2017, 05:05 PM   #7
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Re: can't get pot odds

Welcome to the small stakes limit forum.
Quote:
Originally Posted by jdkoerner View Post
Here the odds are worse because there are more cards in the deck undealt.
You have unknown cards in your opponent's hands. You have unknown cards in the deck. You have unknown cards as the burn cards. They're all in different spots, but for probability, they're all the same. You know your two cards and the 3 card on the board (the flop). That's 5 known cards. It leaves the other 47 cards unknown. It doesn't matter if 18 of those cards are dealt to 9 other players in a 10 handed game or if 12 of them were dealt in a 7 handed one. All of your odds are based on the 47 unknown cards.

I'm not sure what tight limpers means. Tight players generally fold, because they don't play many hands. If they limp, they're more likely loose or passive If you're at a 7 handed table and most of the pots are 4 ways limped (say 3 limpers and you have 85 in the BB and check), the flop comes with a flush draw for you. QT2. You likely need a flush to win. You check and it checks to the button who bets. There are 5 bets in the pot, you have to call one. What are your odds? What should you consider?
Quote:
Most rakes are 10% making a tight game unbeatable.
Hard to argue with this. 2/4 is really small. With a $5 rake or whatever, it is hard to beat. OTOH, it is cheap to learn poker at these stakes, so if you're a beginner it could be cheap education at poker. It is really expensive to learn LHE at 20/40
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Old 03-01-2017, 06:02 PM   #8
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Re: can't get pot odds

Four things: (1) you should probably call less often with stuff like gutshots and naked overs, but flush draws and OESDs should still be able to call profitably a lot of the time given the implied odds of getting there; (2) if these people call too much post flop, you will have better implied odds on your draws; (3) if they fold too much post flop, you will have more bluffing opportunities; and (4) you will always realize more of your equity if you bloat the pot preflop. This is not to say that you should do so indiscriminately (especially if the rake is not capped at a certain dollar amount), but you need to make sure that you are pushing every equity edge you have.
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Old 03-02-2017, 11:01 AM   #9
jdkoerner
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Re: can't get pot odds

Fantastic! I was already doing some of those things by force of habit -- like raising before the flop with premium hands and avoiding gut shots -- but I need to loosen up a little in calling. Too often it was a check around on the flop and the turn and I'm regretting not pushing them out with calls. Thanks for your prompt reply.
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Old 03-02-2017, 12:53 PM   #10
jdr0317
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Re: can't get pot odds

I'm really confused by this question.

If you're asking about probability of making a draw, then it doesn't really matter if the hand is dealt HU or 10 handed (as our opponent's cards are an unknown entity, just like cards in the deck). The only major difference is that in a full ring environment, we can make more educated guesses as to our opponent's holdings to add or subtract equity from our own (ex: you bet turn with the nut flush draw and get raised, a 3rd player calls two cold, we can say that our opponent has two of our "outs" a reasonable amount of time, while if everyone folds, it's more likely that our equity is slightly higher than pure random). DougL addresses this general idea well.

As far as betting, I'm also confused? The math behind betting has to do with your hands versus the range of your opponents, while the math behind calling is an equity calculation (as in, you bet into a 3.25 bet pot on the river because your opponent is folding > 23.5% and it is immediately profitable, or you call this bet in a now 4.25 bet pot because you're winning > 19% of the time). As far as chasing your draw goes, you should always just default to dividing the number of "non-outs" you have by # of "outs" to get your needed pot odds (in the case of a flush, you're 37:9 on the river to make it, close to 4:1). So if there's 4 bets in the pot for every 1 you have to call, you should call absent a compelling reason (like you suspect you have a dominated draw w/ RIO).

If the pot is simply too small to chase (ex: 4 way limped, flops checks through, guy bets turn w/ his top pair, you're getting 3:1 not accounting for rake), then you should feel happy that these guys aren't charging you to make hands. You can always splash the pot before the hand, then you'll be guaranteed to have profitable calls with your flush draw on later streets . Of course, this makes no sense, because we don't like putting money in with the worst of it. We'd much rather see another card for free.
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Old 03-02-2017, 02:47 PM   #11
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Re: can't get pot odds

Quote:
Originally Posted by jdkoerner View Post
Fantastic! I was already doing some of those things by force of habit -- like raising before the flop with premium hands and avoiding gut shots -- but I need to loosen up a little in calling. Too often it was a check around on the flop and the turn and I'm regretting not pushing them out with calls. Thanks for your prompt reply.
Immediate odds to hit is for no limit for the most part. Pay attention to odds to hit on the turn and river, and if you're not already count the size of the pot.

Also, stronly recommend Ed Miller's book Small Stakes Holdem. It's worth far more than the cover in these games.
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Old 03-02-2017, 03:51 PM   #12
daveopie
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Re: can't get pot odds

You don't have odds to draw? OK - no problem. You fold. But also, they won't have odds to draw either, which means when you are ahead in a hand, you can continue betting forcing them to either fold or call without the correct odds. And if they are super tight (e.g. they fold if they don't flop top pair or better), then you throw in a few bluffs at flops they are likely to fold.
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