The Game: 15/30. Fairly loose and wild.

V1: Maniac. Preflop: Playing every hand. Probably has stats of 95/60/40. Refer to previous history and reads

Hero in BB with J2o

V1 limps from UTG, 2 callers, hero checks in BB

Flop: J45 2 clubs (4 SB)

hero bets, V1 raises, 2 fold, hero calls

Turn Kd (4 BB)

hero checks, V1 bets, Hero check raises, V1 calls

River Kh (8 BB)

hero bets, V1 tanks and calls.

Maybe I spazzed a bit in this hand, but then again maybe not. I'm usually not in the habit of playing TP no kicker this way, but given the previous observed history with the villain I felt TP was almost like having a set. How would you play this hand versus a maniac?

I like it. Given read, no reason to pop the flop.

The king kind of sucks for you on the turn, but I still like raise w/ intent to call down if 3!'d.

If he's really raising any pair on the flop or even stuff like A2/A3, then you should have proper equity to put in more action. The only question is whether to 3-bet the flop (you do this if he likes to check back the turn for a free card) or take your line (if he just mindlessly barrels).

I 3 bet the flop, calling down if he 4 bets, leading turn and river if he calls and I'm calling any raises. I don't see any need to get tricky when the guy hasn't shown that he has brakes. The presence of backdoor draws in his flop raising range makes the turn check raise a little more tempting, but he might even raise my turn bet with bluffs so I don't feel like we're missing any value by 3 betting the flop. By waiting for the turn you cut down on your implied bluff catching odds unless he'll 3 bet the turn with worse, which probably isn't going to happen. Probably.

*G*

nh (probably), imo.

I think only calling turn would be a little underplaying based on reads from prior thread.
As for river bet, I assume he likes to SD a lot?

I don't like 3-betting the flop. Our read is he can raise air/weak draws & likes to barrel, why do we want to shut him out of the pot by 3-betting the flop & betting the turn?

There's really no downside to C/R the turn because we know he'll bet it for us. Its not like we can 3-bet the flop and B/3-bet a brick turn.

I want to turn my hand into a bluff catcher by fast playing the flop. I don't want to turn my hand into a turn 3 bet bluffcatcher because it's rare to find someone who'll 3 bet bluff the turn, but he may 4 bet the flop with a lot of hands we beat. I also consider check raising this turn card to be overplaying the hand. Maniacs get good hands sometimes too. We're forced to call down a turn 3 bet because of the read, but I don't expect to be good often enough.

You want to turn your hand into a bluff catcher by attacking all his air/junk with a flop 3-bet? This doesn't make any sense. If you think C/R the turn is overplaying our hand, than your best play is to just hit call 3 times.

Raise enough times with anything but the nuts and at some point your hand becomes a bluffcatcher if raised. Rating possible plays from strongest to weakest I'd say: bet call flop check raise turn; 3 bet flop lead turn; call down from flop raise. My best bet is not to call down 3 times if I think check raising the turn is overplay. It is to 3 bet the flop and lead. You think this guy's folding JTs or A9 to a flop 3 bet? I don't, and I think he'll 4 bet with many hands we beat, and then our hand will be a bluffcatcher which is what I want. I get value and catch bluffs. You think you're catching bluffs profitably against a turn 3 bet? If yes, I think you're wrong unless this guy is on crack. If no, you must be raise folding the turn which can't be right against a maniac.

I could use the same arguments that you are, but argue for waiting until the river to raise. That doesn't make it right.

I agree. This is a read I try to pick up on early in the session. It really makes a difference in maximizing your turn and river value.


Yes. Altough an Ace probably wouldn't be a good card to get a call. From previous observations, he seemed a bit petrified by that card on the river if he didn't hold it.


I agree. If V1's range was narrower on the flop (say FD and SD) then I think 3! flop would be a better line. In this case it's not, so why not re-raise the turn.



The hand is HU at this point so raises are uncapped. Versus this villain I think I'd be concerned if it hit 5 bets on the flop.

nh

But you're not concerned about a turn 3 bet when you have middle pair? I think it's much more likely that he 4 bets the flop with worse than he 3 bets the turn with worse. Are you folding to a 3 bet on the turn?

If you told me that the turn was going to be a 3, then I'd wait to raise.

Your line is going to work in exactly this scenario: Villain raises primarily weak made hands on the flop, and cannot bet/fold the turn with it. If that's the Villain, then nh.

If Villain raises a lot of draws, then he takes a free card on the turn and you get pwned. If he bet/folds the turn, you're probably losing value (as IMO he'll often call down if you 3-bet the flop).

The turn raise is a two-edged sword. What would you have done if you got 3-bet? How would you feel if he turned over J7o after calling down? Fundamentally, what range are you representing by b/c-c/r when a turn K hits? KJ which didn't 3-bet the flop? Kx which b/c the flop with air? K5-K4? As a matter of fact, if the non-club card on the flop is a diamond (e.g., turn brings a second diamond), a big part of your range is now pair+FD combos, and he can easily 3-bet pretty light.

--- (too lazy to go back and multiquote)

I'm going to disagree with Captain R and point out that if villain mindlessly barrels, you should c/c the turn with an eye on c/r the river, not c/r the turn. There's no point in letting him off the hook with a turn c/r if he can b/f stuff he'd put in at least one more bet with on the river.