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06-18-2015 , 11:48 PM
8-16 loose passive game.

Are we 2 betting A10 in the big blind with 4 other limpers?

I'm pretty sure it's the best hand on the table if that helps.
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06-19-2015 , 02:11 AM
Yes. This hand will have good equity against 4 random limping ranges, and it plays well multiway.
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06-19-2015 , 02:47 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maganda's Big Fish
I'm pretty sure it's the best hand on the table if that helps.
Generally speaking, this is an indicator for more bets.
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06-19-2015 , 02:47 AM
Lots of people miss the value you gain MW when in the BB w big suited cards in these types of loose passive live games.

You could probably raise any hands here that you would open EP in a full ring game. 5 ways to the flop and OOP you cant just auto cbet, though, with all of them (think 4s5s7c w this hand or 10JKr w a hand like 88; both are very common types of flop textures)). You're raising for pure value with a nutted hand that prob has 30-40% equity depending on opponents ranges, way more than an evenly distributed 20% each among the five players seeing the flop.
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06-23-2015 , 11:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Maganda's Big Fish
8-16 loose passive game.

Are we 2 betting A10 in the big blind with 4 other limpers?

I'm pretty sure it's the best hand on the table if that helps.


If you raised every suited broadway from the BB in limped pots; you are doing it right.


I can't imagine NOT raising ATs in an unraised pot from any position in a loose game.
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06-27-2015 , 06:04 AM
I'd raise A2s and A9o
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06-27-2015 , 07:50 PM
This is literally an example hand in SSLH.

Raise for value AINEC.
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06-29-2015 , 10:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by La Peste
I'd raise A2s and A9o
Totally admit that this could be a leak, but I'm allergic to A9o. Maybe the "big offsuit 4 gapper" in general just seems to fail to play well multiway in my mind. Even forgetting bad position, it seems like a RIO hand. People put you on having an A, so your perceived raising range is A-heavy. They limp better A's than this, so the domination side is weak. It doesn't make straights and one pair isn't exciting in a huge field. Maybe it wins, but you're just never getting a ton of bets in great. I'm guessing there are a bunch of hands that run as bad or worse than A9o that I'm fistpump raising from the BB. Maybe I'd justify knocking the table with A9o by saying, "I need some A's in my limping range, why not have one that can't make a str8?"

With ATs,
Quote:
Raise for value AINEC.
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06-29-2015 , 10:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
Totally admit that this could be a leak, but I'm allergic to A9o. Maybe the "big offsuit 4 gapper" in general just seems to fail to play well multiway in my mind. Even forgetting bad position, it seems like a RIO hand. People put you on having an A, so your perceived raising range is A-heavy. They limp better A's than this, so the domination side is weak. It doesn't make straights and one pair isn't exciting in a huge field. Maybe it wins, but you're just never getting a ton of bets in great. I'm guessing there are a bunch of hands that run as bad or worse than A9o that I'm fistpump raising from the BB. Maybe I'd justify knocking the table with A9o by saying, "I need some A's in my limping range, why not have one that can't make a str8?"

With ATs,
FWIW, A9o is more likely to dominate a random Ax than it is to be dominated. And weak limpers are unlikely to raise us with the AT that they limped in with on the A-hi board, so it's not that expensive of a proposition relative to h/c equity. I agree that this can be a problem hand, though, and one that I value town myself with a lot.
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06-29-2015 , 11:12 AM
I don't raise A9o or A2s in the BB here.

A9s, i'm raising
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06-29-2015 , 11:15 AM
I always feel that 1 bet per street, I'm doing fine. Yes, if the villain limps all A's, I'm dominated by 4 and dominating 7. As boards roll off and I don't make 2 pair, it gets more hazy. I'm rooting for cards over my 9 when I hit my A? Maybe playing in the 20/40 makes me more gunshy and at 8/16 I wouldn't care -- in the B games, there were plenty of people taking passive PF lines and whacky aggression post. Oddly, in the 30/60 here, people are nuts on every street and you worry less about value cutting.

When it comes down to it, A9o and hands like it can only win one way. You can't have big draws. Improving your hand (say, hitting an A) often doesn't help you pull ahead of hands beating you (sets, better A's). Again, it could be a leak and a logic fail. Hitting top pair with a meh kicker and then hanging on to beat a 6 way field seems less exciting than a hand that can flop a 21 out combo draw with 15 to the near nuts.
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06-29-2015 , 11:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
I always feel that 1 bet per street, I'm doing fine. Yes, if the villain limps all A's, I'm dominated by 4 and dominating 7. As boards roll off and I don't make 2 pair, it gets more hazy. I'm rooting for cards over my 9 when I hit my A? Maybe playing in the 20/40 makes me more gunshy and at 8/16 I wouldn't care -- in the B games, there were plenty of people taking passive PF lines and whacky aggression post. Oddly, in the 30/60 here, people are nuts on every street and you worry less about value cutting.

When it comes down to it, A9o and hands like it can only win one way. You can't have big draws. Improving your hand (say, hitting an A) often doesn't help you pull ahead of hands beating you (sets, better A's). Again, it could be a leak and a logic fail. Hitting top pair with a meh kicker and then hanging on to beat a 6 way field seems less exciting than a hand that can flop a 21 out combo draw with 15 to the near nuts.
I don't disagree with that at all and would much rather have like JTs than A9o in this spot. I guess it really depends on the fishy / passive level. If people are limping like AQs and TT regularly, I would not raise A9o. If limps all mean baby pocket pairs, suited junk, ragged aces/kings, etc, I'd be much more inclined. So I guess standard 4/8 game, raising A9o maybe is a bit much.
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06-29-2015 , 11:23 AM
I have a feeling that people who play better than I do say "lol, raise".
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06-29-2015 , 11:25 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DougL
I have a feeling that people who play better than I do say "lol, raise".
I mean I raise this in live games, but I also have a storied history of being a kamikaze pilot out of the blinds in multiway pots.
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06-29-2015 , 01:49 PM
Just hard to win this pot UI against three people in this type of game.

ATs is an auto raise.
A9o isn't terrible to raise, I just dont.

ATo is another one. I raise sometimes, sometimes I check.
AJo I raise 100% here.

This thread is all about where is the line in the sand where we stop raising and start checking.

ATs is nowhere near that line
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06-29-2015 , 04:05 PM
This all seems fair. The OP mentioned 4 limpers, so even a slightly worse case winning UI.
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06-30-2015 , 05:47 AM
Ok... Newbie here and I'm sure it's very obvious... What does UI mean? Jokes are on me.
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06-30-2015 , 08:57 AM
Unimproved.

A good number of people who post have played online, short handed games. When looking at hands, holdings that might win without improvement are considered - most pots are heads up. It is the opposite of 5 way limped pots where one pair often isn't enough. You're thinking about the drawing potential of a hand as a contrast.
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