i was in Vegas for a vacation and decided to try my luck at the 4.

Villain in this hand is on a heater. She is fishy, plays over 70% of pots while I was there for just over an hour. Generally the loose passive type. Hero is otb with A8o. Kill is on.

Folds to hero who opens, SB calls, villain calls utg+1.

Flop is ATxr. SB checks, villain bets, hero calls, SB folds.

Turn 4. Villain bets, hero calls.

River J. Villain bets, hero calls.

Comments on all streets please.

Note: I play in southern Ontario and the kill concept in Vegas is new to me. Here, the kill is activated once a pot at the standard limit reaches 10bbs or over. The next lot is then a kill pot and stays a kill pot until the "killer" loses. The "killer" acts in sequence preflop, so if the killer is utg, then he/she acts first pre.

Hey welcome to the forum.

I'd play it the same, but I've never played in a kill game.

1. Welcome!

2. You should mention who is the killer.

3. You shouldn't say that it's folded to you on the button if someone limped in ahead.

4. Including pot sizes is often helpful (not this hand but other hands).

5. Assuming you have 1 limper in front, preflop is good.

6. When Villain donks (bets into the preflop raiser), whether to call or raise depends on whether Villain would have raised better aces. A lot of people will donk with top pair weak kicker. But a lot of people will also limp/call AJo and then donk. Count the number of cominations that beat you, e.g., AK = 2x4, AT = 2x3, and the combos that you beat, e.g., T9 = 3x4, JTs = 3x1, and let that inform your decision.

7. Don't let the kill throw you off. The killer has a wide range by virtue of posting, and sometimes people go nuts (either becoming super tight or super loose when the kill is on), but you should count everything in terms of big bets and play solid.

Sorry, villain posted the kill.

I would call this down as a standard against random people who are potentially on invincibility tilt and suck at poker.

I would come in with a raise pre-flop if folded to me OTB with an Ace regardless of kill.

So the villain has already checked an option UTG+1? If she were a good player, this really reduces her range. Here???

I think you played the hand fine. I'm expecting the donk/barrel line to be full of it a decent % of the time. You make more money just letting her barrel off.

There is some chance that the villain is donking top pair, and you could do some math on how many hands the villain opens "for free" as the killer. If you put the villain on raising AJo+ and A9s+, you beat more A's than beat you. So, if you thought the villain never donks and then folds, maybe you have to think about getting more value. My mental picture of a random player is that sometimes they do random things, you don't have enough kicker to raise a big street (without a better read), and I like the idea of letting her keep the lead and hand over the $. With a better read or another idea of range, raising for value somewhere could be better.

nice hand

Don't sweat the kill.

I guess I'm in the minority when I say raise flop. Wouldn't villain have raised preflop w a better A?

If flop was A9xr I'd be more likely to just call down, but with the presence of draws, I'd rather charge them.

You are definitely sitting in the right game though, as a tablemate at the B mentioned to me that his gf was sitting at 4/8 w no less than 6 other women. Can't beat that ratio, GL!

In the 20/40, I've seen plenty of people who were close to decent limp AQo and AKo. I'm not making that assumption about "raising better A's" about a loose/passive. Vegas games can be passive. If I could rule out a bunch of better A's, I'd want to raise more. Depends on how much air is barreling off as well.

Vegas games are obscenely passive. I'd be b/f like JJ on Q64tt HU. They'd always show me the QT+ if I could coax it. Hilariously one of the few that didn't always have it was an older lady I played.

But Ya, I expect to be good quite rarely on that turn card in these vegas games tbh. But enough to still cd.

Thanks for the reply guys. The thought process you guys have brought up really helped.

I exclusively play live, so without the help of PT/HUD, how do you guys keep track of player types, opening ranges, etc etc. I also play at the same casino for about ten years, the last 3.5, I have been keeping very basic stats on my own results and not notes on my opponents.

I guess my question simply put is: how do you keep track of learned knowledge in a live game setting where online you have apps to assist?

As you understand the basic good plays in spots, you'll see your opponents not making those plays. Start with becoming solid. Understand standard preflop play. Those of us who played online might summarize a strategy as playing 22/17 full ring, but those numbers are really just the result of the hands we choose to play. No magic in the numbers, the decisions are all about what to play, how, and when. I don't need a HUD to know that limping A2s UTG in a game that has a lot of raising and 3 betting is bad. Same with 22. If that same player limps AKo UTG and explains that "it doesn't have a pair, yet", we know he's loose/passive. We don't need a stat read of 50/2.

The online stats tools are typically misused by most people anyway. They rely on stats with too small samples. They just use stats and stop paying attention. They fail to understand that loose players preflop should have much lower post flop aggression stats due to their flop ranges being so much weaker. Thus a loose player with "standard" aggression post flop is actually a post flop LAG. Don't wish for the tools, they're shorthand you don't need.

Just pay attention. You're folding a lot. Also, people love to tell you how they think about the game. Listen and watch. As you become better, it will become easier to summarize their mistakes.

You have to raise this flop. The pot is already 7BB. We don't want the BB to peel with Tx or some random gutshot. Our hand is crushing the kill/check/donk flop range.


Raise the flop for value and protection.

Raise flop

I'm a fan of the raise on the flop also. Better Aces would probably raise preflop. The donk bet on a A high flop makes me think that he is trying to push you off because you didn't raise preflop.

You have no concern that your opponent folds when you raise his donk? If your villain is bluffing are you sure that value raising is better than letting him continue to bluff?

If it's heads up I don't mind calling the flop. It's not heads up. Have to raise to get third guy out or charge them the max.

Two questions. A) How does the SB ever get more than 5 outs? He could have 0, 2, 3, 4, or 5. Given how bad his draw is, why are we desperate to force him out? B) If you need to drive him out, why is the flop better than the turn?

Value raising is fun, and agreed it could be the best. Having TP on a AJxr flop, I'm not sure about protection being a big component of my strategy.

It's also for value against the flop donker and the sb.

The pots to big to f around here.

With the 3rd person in the pot, I would raise the flop as well. HU, I am fine with letting the V continue to bet into me and just call.

Thanks for the replies! Much appreciated.

I guess the general feeling is that hero should get to showdown.
Has the thought -maybe we're behind- come across anyone's mind? Especially after the villain has bet flop turn and river.

Yes. By the time you get to the river, your opponent will have many hands that beat you, but the price of showing down is too good to pass up without a good read.

If you don't raise the flop or turn he could be betting anything on the river.


If you call the flop and the BB folds I'm showing down here 100%.

There is literally no two cards that hit the turn and River that would make me fold heads up.